Currently Being ModeratedMay 7, 2012 2:15 PM (in response to RonMarton)Re: Line 6 Takes (Over) The Stage, ...Yet Again!
I have not seen or even looked for any StageScape posts until now.
Nothing posted under your initial post...now that the mixer has been announced with a retail price point of $2,500.00 and still not out to the public after four release delays, what do you think of the unit at this point?
The sub-woofer "S" is out to some retailers as well as the "T" top speaker/monitor, but not the mixer yet, nor the "M" top speaker/monitor. I wish I knew how sales were going on the mixer as well as the other SoundScape gear. I'm wondering if people are even buying the correct interface cables for the L6 links that all the gear use to communicate bi-directionally? I really hope people who buy this gear are not using plain XLR mic cables to interconnect all this equipment.
I guess only time will tell.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 7, 2012 3:25 PM (in response to MerlinFL)Re: Line 6 Takes (Over) The Stage, ...Yet Again!
Maybe Line 6 are having some "start up" problems in respect of producing them in quantity with the quality they're after. (I'm only guessing.)
The price point (my main concern) now looks to be excellent value, given not only the pricing of competitors' snaphot-equipped "standard" digital mixers with a similar number of channels and outputs, but also the almost exponential leap in power and flexibility that the "StageScape" concept makes over them.
When it comes to intuitive operation, there's nothing out there that's remotely in the ball park.
Never mind the ball park, ...the others are far from sharing even the same zip code. "Light years away" would seem to be a fair description.
Given the befuddled looks I've seen from (supposedly) experienced operators when re-clocking "splats" beset their mic-cabled hook-ups of sundry AES gear, I'd say the fear you express is well-founded.
Surely the word will get around eventually, however the sage conclusion of your post cannot be questioned.
Not just regarding hook-ups, but regarding all things "StageScape"...
Currently Being ModeratedMay 30, 2012 10:47 AM (in response to RonMarton)Re: Line 6 Takes (Over) The Stage, ...Yet Again!
Hi Ron - it's nice to have at least one person who is thinking about the Line 6 venture into literal pioneering live audio equipment with this StageScape/SoundScape line of products. However, the mixer as of this post is still not available. This seems to be following the same release problems had by the JTV guitars from World Music in Korea. Those were a year or more past the original release date. I can only hope for those htat might have place pre-orders for this gear that they are not sitting on speakers that have very limited use without the M20d mixer attached to them.
However...I've recently seen "Line 6 brand" of DMX cable in only two lengths. 6' & 50' on Sweetwater.com and few others. The 50' cable is priced retail at $90.00!!! Nothing about why the cable is so expensive? Nothing about why anyone needs a Line 6 brand DMX cable instead of any other true DMX cable? The need for true DMX cabling has been required and blown off by Line 6 in general for almost two years since the public release of the POD HD units and the DT50 amp as well as more recently the DT25 amp.
I was one of only a few that seemed to understand that using a standard audio XLR cable will "work", but could cause problems, and even potential long term gear failure. Only now that the L6 PA gear is has the speakers out that Line 6 is now making "special cables" for use with the PA ..."and you can also use them for your other L6 Link equipped gear." But why???
Why make a public statement on the sales info regarding these Line 6 branded cables? I can only believe that the reason is nothing more than money. Accessories are the highest cost to sale ratio products in any field, like USB cables, Mic cables, Speaker cables and every other kind of cable for anything requiring a cable. Even A/C extension cords are high margin products for those in retail. I left a link to one of many quality cable companies that have true DMX cabling for about .30/ft with the 3-pin xlr-style ends on both sides.
So I come back to what I had been saying on all the forums regarding the POD HD units and the L6 link for the past two years that has been met with skepticism at best and downright nastiness from a few that I'm talking out my backside.
I've been trying my best to explain why a typical audio XLR cable is bad, and a true DMX 3-pin cable is correct at nearly any length. I even posted a link that explains the difference in how an audio cable works as well as how a DMX cable works.
Here's one for ya Ron...
- The M20d mixer has FOUR aux sends. All of which are DMX designed to work using the L6 Link.
- What if you want the mixer, but wish to use the rest of your own system? Speakers, amps, monitors, etc.?
- I know the unit is designed for bands running sound from stage, but what if someone wanted to use this unit in front of the stage and has an audio snake? How are any of these people supposed to connect up to the four Aux sends that have only XLR-style outputs when nearly all audio based stage snakes have TRS 1/4" plugs at the mixer end?
- Also - if using any of the Line 6 gear running through an audio snake of 50' or typically 100' - how is the digital signal supposed to get sent? I don't just mean what I've already said about the connectors being incompatible, but the snake itself is very incompatible since it's designed for audio signal, not digital signal. The inherent impedance would cause all sorts of problems at both ends.
- Simple explanation of XLR cables is Positive pin, Negative pin, Ground pin. The reason is that audio signal sent can also have audio signal returned simultaneously without causing impedance problems like trying to run an instrument cable (TS) longer than 25ft. The typical PA board has built in balancing transformers to keep the audio signal at both ends as close to the same strength as if you were only 10' apart.
- This is not how the digital signal works exactly. Impedance issues are a much bigger problem and there are no compensating transformers in typical audio gear for such a digital signal. Typical lighting gear has it, but not typical audio gear.
- And as far as I know - there is not a single audio snake made that covers both standard audio signal like from a microphone, as well as the digital signals that the L6 Link gear all use.
- It's almost like Line 6 is making StageScape/SoundScape users hook everything up on stage without giving any choice. Unless you have an iPad 2.0 or higher and use the "free app" as mentioned at NAMM to you could go wireless and use that iPad to make off stage adjustments on the StageScape unit.
I'll leave it here for now, but I've also submitted a suggestion to Line 6 directly on what I believe it will take to get this line of products off the ground and also get the brand into the minds of the majority of working musicians/bands infinitely better than just promo material. But my suggestion will cost a fair deal of money, plus a good amount of time in the short term. I believe 100% that it would work and bring the company much long term gain as well as a very quick return on their capital investment beyond what must have already been spent to get this far.
Have you had any thoughts since your last post Ron?
Currently Being ModeratedMay 30, 2012 3:04 PM (in response to MerlinFL)Re: Line 6 Takes (Over) The Stage, ...Yet Again!
It ISN'T DMX, (Dimmer Multiplex) Neal !
You'll appreciate that the data inherent in the distribution of "256 stepped" lamp levels and control allocation is a whole lot simpler than the complexity of bit-mapped audio and its metadata (data about the transmitted data).
As you've hinted, "Line 6 Link" seems to be a robust encoded data stream along the lines of AES or Dolby E, which means that the higher capacitance typical of long balanced mic cable acts on the top end of the data stream very much as though we'd "wound in" a lot of top cut via a mixing desk's filter or eq.
Lower bandwidth's the problem, ...part of the data "goes missing", ...hence the requirement for AES-type (150Ω) XL cabling.
I'll just repeat my usual disclaimer: I have neither affiliation with, nor particular loyalty to Line 6. (Nor to any other manufacturers or commercial interests, come to that!)
Accordingly, when the M20d system eventually makes it into mass production, I'd be looking for the cheapest and most rugged AES cables I can find, brand notwithstanding.
(My having used "when", rather than "if" in the above statement ...is, however, a clear token of the respect I do have for the "Line 6 Team".)
Regarding multicore "snakes" containing individual 150Ω cables as well as mic circuits, I can't really see the need, given that it's much cheaper to wholly replace them with Cat.5, Cat.6 or 150Ω cabling, even taking into account an "extra" being run to form a "redundancy insurance" pair.
In the wired (and increasingly wireless) world, multicores have joined the list of other endangered snakes...
("What's an eight track cartridge, Grandpa ?)
To also answer your earlier query, in the absence of (or in addition to) "Line 6 Link", the M20d pix have the four "AUX" sends appearing as standard analog XLM outputs on the mixer's back panel, albeit marked as "Monitors 1 to 4".
In my case, I'd find one of these really handy for the increasingly obligatory "media" or "camcorder" "split" of spoken word content.
Speaking of "spoken word", that's quite enough from me, ...so
All the very best for a fine Florida summer , mate...
Currently Being ModeratedJun 5, 2012 1:47 PM (in response to RonMarton)Re: Line 6 Takes (Over) The Stage, ...Yet Again!
I just saw this unit on Sweetwater's sales pages. This is a unit from Alesis which is a Drum Module, but I present it here as it might look very familiar to those who have been waiting and waiting and waiting for Line 6 to finally make the StageScape mixer available to the public since the latest dealer info says the end of june which was previusly, the beginning of june, etc. Anyone remember the JTV guitar debockle? It took a year for those to finally get out in the world and then met with less than great reception by at least half of those who had ordered and waited all that time for the JTV to arrive.
Here's the link to the Sweetwater sales page with this Alesis unit on it. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DMDock/
Here's a bit of it's decription to wet your curiosity...
Infinitely Expandable Percussion Module!
Hook your electronic drums up to your iPad with the Alesis DM Dock! This infinitely expandable drum module uses trigger sounds from your iPad via a full compliment of 13 individual 1/4" TRS trigger inputs. The DM dock even supports multi-zone pads. You can easily see and control functions with the large and easy-to-use display of your iPad or iPad 2. With the wireless connectivity of the iPad you can easily download new sounds at your gig or on the road. The DM Dock also features MIDI I/O and USB MIDI for connecting to external hardware and computers. The Alesis DM Dock marries the convenience, power, and flexibility of the iPad and electronic drum kits together in one stage-ready unit
If anyone has any thoughts after checkng this out and wish to share them here, I'd love to know what others think of this unit relating to the Line 6 Stage Scape M20d mixer console.
Currently Being ModeratedJun 5, 2012 3:32 PM (in response to MerlinFL)Re: Line 6 Takes (Over) The Stage, ...Yet Again!
Hah ! Alesis is another of my absolute favourite manufacturers, Neal.
Has been since the early '90's, when their first "Microverb" came on stream.
I often throw one of their "Nanoverbs" into my carry-on luggage to guarantee my access to quality reverb when arranging audio acquisition and live mixing of concerts and ceremonial events using the OB vans (remote trucks) of less developed countries.
In this regard, I'd suggest you reframe the last short paragraph of your above post as the subject of a "New" discussion. Mark it as a question and add appropriate tags so others are more likely to be drawn to it.
As for the Variax-like lag between the announcement and the availability of the StageScape M20d, Line 6 would be far from unique in having the marketing "tail" shaking the company "dog".
My theory is that the fragrant smoke that wafts around marketing "gurus" and their "brainstorming" sessions seems to insulate them from any awareness of how stupid they make a company seem when products fail to materialize.
"Guruspeak" posits that long lead times generate more "buzz" and hunger for the product.
This ignores the consequent frustration that (far from being "buzz") often motivates a "Buzz Off ! " response from those who might otherwise have become prospective purchasers.
So, with the greatest of respect Line 6, ...WAKE UP !