Currently Being ModeratedAug 31, 2012 10:48 PM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Honestly, for a good accurate live sound, the amp wouldn't be ideal. Especially if you use any of the acoustic models on the JTV. In ears or the Stagesource monitors would be more ideal.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 4:27 AM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
I like just running straight into the PA..makes things a little more simple..and you don't have to lug an amp around.. I think your going to find varried opinions on this.. Some are going to say straight PA.. then some will say you need an amp..I just don't see allot of gain using an amp when I can acheive the sound I want piping the HD to the PA.. it is the end sound that counts the most..your already piping a Miked amp simulation to the PA.. so why would you want to mike another Amp over a miked Amp simulation??
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 7:39 AM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Yes Stokes, I can see how opinions would vary! Here is another view
I currently use a POD XT Live and usually a 20th anniversary Squire Strat (Affinity). The guy that built it must have been in a good mood as it sounds really good. I sometimes use a Variax 500 but the intonation problems bug the heck out of me ... bridge is about 1/4" too close to the neck. I've adjusted it as far as I can possibly do it, but I am going to have to build a new guitar or rebuild an old one that I have. I now know why people said what they did about the guitars being badly built and why Line6 brought in a proper luthier. No wonder people were buying the 300's and stuffing the electronics into Warmoth bodies. Ever notice how quickly the 300's were discontinued?
But to the topic at hand, while I can use the XT Live to plug right into the PA, I have found that to be happy with hearing myself in the monitors, I am too loud for other people on the team ... I was told once on my old praise team that I was interfering with the girls that were singing harmony. Comes from using CAGED way up the neck. Bottom line is that each guitarist is going to have their own preferred way of hearing themselves and willingness to lug equipment around. My setup allows me to walk in and out of the sound cone to increase or decrease the sound level that I am hearing. It lets me pay attention to rest of the team when needed and pay attention to what I am playing when needed.
I used to use a DI box between the pedal and the amp splitting the signal to PA and amp, But I recently picked up a tiny Marshall Lead 12 combo, 1984 vintage with a 10 inch celestion. 12 watts is plenty loud as a monitor, but this amp has a dual purpose 1/4 output on the front for headphone or line out. What I do now is use that line out to plug into the PA through the DI box. The good thing about this set up is I have the amp controls set so that I never have to adjust them. I only once brought two amps to church as I used the Marshall line out to run into my Peavy combo.
As far as layering amp sims on top of an amp, I haven't used that perspective in a long long time. Amp sims are simply a set of adjustable tonal controls with optional gain/distortion. If I like what I hear, I use it. That was probably the best way of thinking when matching Variax models with XT Live amp sims.
I have to admit that I am coming at this from the perspective of playing electric guitar. But, I have used the same setup with my acoustic. I just stand a little farther away from the amp .
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 7:58 AM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
When running thru the PA nothing is easyer than the POD, but is some instances when I'm playing in bands with a backline, like in a club or smaller venue theres nothing better than rock'n thru an amp. It's a different vibe that you, and your band feed off. The DT is perfect for that.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 12:30 PM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
I agree with a lot of these comments, and I don't see a convincing reason yet to go with the amp. I like the idea of having a backline, and recognize that it is a very different vibe than using in-ears - and in some ways higher energy and more fun too - but the drummer will be playing an electronic kit so he's only going to be in the PA anyway. Seems to me decent in-ears will give us more of a fidelity given the way we'll be playing when we're out in a church somewhere. We'll be rehearsing through the PA though so we'll still have a good sense of what will be happing out front when we play. Make sense as an approach?
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 12:33 PM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
In your situation in-ears makes perfect sense. But remember, flexability is key to success and more gear always make more sense.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 12:45 PM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
I agree in theory with many of the comments.
However, in practice I was never satisfied with the sound I mixed at home verses what I got in the PA. If I mixed for the PA, I still wasn't totally happy with the sound in my aviom system.
In the end, what worked for me was to purchase a used 18 watt Atomic amp (designed for use with modelers). Best purchase I ever made. At first, I found that I got a much closer match through the amp to what I would get through the PA. But in the end, something was still missing. So I took my amp and mic'd it. The sound guy was happy. Other musicians were happy. I was happy. So much for theory. Fractal (makers of axe fx) bought atomic amps, and upgraded them, and they are a bit pricey now. But if you have the dough, imo, it's the way to go.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 4, 2012 1:12 PM (in response to JerryDT)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Hi Jerry, your reply does resonate with me. The other approach I was considering had me with a DT25 112 combo and I figured to take a direct line off of that for the PA. I planned to put an attentuator on it so I could play at low volumes and just use it to get tone. But I also know I can get tone just by going direct to the PA. I've heard of Atomic. You are right, they are pricey. I ended up buying a Traynor keyboard amp that was raved about and it's worked fine with my Pod X3 Live.
Hmmm... lot of good comments here and much food for thought...
Currently Being ModeratedSep 10, 2012 11:21 AM (in response to JerryDT)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
"However, in practice I was never satisfied with the sound I mixed at home verses what I got in the PA. If I mixed for the PA, I still wasn't totally happy with the sound in my aviom system. "
This topic comes up every now and again. It goes back to The Fletcher Munson Loudness Contour Study, which answers the question, "why do my tones sound good at home but heavy and brittle on the gig" (through the PA)? In a nutshell, when you turn something up the upper mids flatten out and the highs go off the chart.
If you don't want to read the study, try this, scoop the upper mids out of a patch and try it at out. What I have done (X3 and HD500) go in to the output section and set your output to "Combo Front", which allows you to access a "Focus" control. Crank up a savage tone and roll the focus tone back until you like it. This sort of sets the output bias of the rig globally. I run my 1/4" lines to a DI box and split one to the house and one to a 50 watt Marshall ss amp that I use for a monitor.
As an aside, even when I ran my rig direct, I would set the output to "Combo Front" so I had use of the focus control.
Basically, I engineer my patches to sound slightly dull at home. When I crank em up in the Sanctuary, they sparkle.
Currently Being ModeratedOct 31, 2012 4:57 AM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Im in South Africa and want to buy a DT25 combo amp!
My problem is that in South africa it is just to expensive I get charged triple the price!
Can someone help me or advice me to someone in the States than can ship the amp to me directly!
Thank You and God Bless
Currently Being ModeratedMar 22, 2013 10:57 AM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
I've gone both ways. I started out with just the HD going straight to the house and now I go HD to DT25 head (I also have a DT-50 but it's too much, I'd recommend the 25) it goes to a 1x12 Blackheart cabinet with an Eminence speaker. We have our speaker cabs in backstage enclosures and used wireless in-ears. One thing I've come to realize and make peace with (more or less) is 1. Your in-ears will never give you a true representation of your actual guitar tone so you need to dial it in and just be confident that it will sound good. I rarely make any adjustments once I set up my rig based on my in-ears. 2. No matter what you do or how close you get to a Holy Grail guitar tone the FOH sound guy can and probably will screw it up.
We're a big church with a rotating band of more than 100 people so I'm always playing with different people and different people at the board. Some board guys are guitar friendly others favor vocals or keys. I've given up wishing for the perfect mix it just doesn't happen. I know if a few guys are running sound to boost my volume onstage a bit right before we start and after soundcheck if I want to be heard
Back to your question though, I do find with using the DT-25 I get a lot more tube dynamics in my playing than I do with just the HD. I have got it down now to basically 1 patch I can use for 90% of the P&W songs. I pick light and I have a clean at the point of breakup and playing hard it really crunches and compresses just like I'd expect. My patch is a dual amp patch with a Twin combined with an Park 75 so it is very articulate and just have a noise gate, a screamer and two delays and use an FX loop for a clean boost for solos. Check it out I'll post it here it's also on CustomTone.Attachments:
- Main WorshipTone.h5e.zip (941 bytes)
Currently Being ModeratedDec 13, 2012 9:26 AM (in response to daveschutt)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Hi Kev . . . I'm also a church player, and I too started with my POD straight into the mixing board. I started with PODxtL, then POD x3L, and now HD500 and was always pretty satisifed with the results and flexibility.
That said, I recently bought a DT25, and I'm blown away with the sound and responsiveness with the HD500/DT25 combination. I have a DT25 112, and I mic the cab, rather than using the direct out. This is not without some sacrifice in flexibility though. Switching to acoustic is no longer a simple task, although I have been considering playing around with panning, and and using direct out panned hard right on one side for acoustic patches, and Line6 link panned hard left for the DT25 (since the DT25 is mono anyway) for electric patches. Perhaps I'll try it out this weekend and let everyone know how it works out. I have one song this weekend where I need to run my mandolin straight into the board, and I was considering bypassing the HD500 altogether.
We DO run at volume on stage though. We are not currently using IEM's. If we used IEM's I would probably drop the DT25 completely for this purpose.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 22, 2013 9:06 AM (in response to daveschutt)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Thanks for this beautiful patch, although I couldn't find the AC15 in your patch, but I don't mind at all as it sounds great.
Have only changed it to a FS1-4 arrangement, sacrificing the noise gate and adding a chorus but didn't change anything on the settings of the amps or the effects.
I have so far only tried this patch during rehearsals last wednesday and instantly liked it a lot - it is really nice!
This could well be my main patch as well.. first let's see how it goes on sunday morning.
Playing a standard AM hardtail strat with Lindy Fralin singles - FBT Verve 12ma wedge - PA
Currently Being ModeratedMar 22, 2013 11:03 AM (in response to avf1957)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Thanks for the kind words Ard. I'm glad you like the patch. I play most every week and I fiddle faddle around with new sounds and patches but seem to come back to that one for most of the run of the mill CCM music. I have experimented a bit. Try subsituting the standard digital delay with dotted 1/8 with a stereo delay-one channel quarter note, the other triplet 8th and see how you like that. I like just the one dotted 8th for standard songs but if you really need that deep repeating like on Hosanna the stereo delay setup works nice. I'm still running in mono to the PA or via DT-25 but it sounded a little cleaner than when I tried 2 delays separately for 1/4 and a triplet setting.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 12, 2013 12:23 AM (in response to daveschutt)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
hi dave, please advise if we can use the 'pre' amp model thru the direct PA, and what about the fx loop..what can be done with that.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 12, 2013 7:09 PM (in response to pratikb)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
Hello pratikb, please allow me to address your questions. I started my rig with JTV/HD500 going to PA and stage monitors. Yes, you can use the "pre" to PA!
A month ago I got the DT25(head and cabinet), connected direct out to the house and the difference now is "from the earth to the moon". The sound is more complete, full and noticeable with more oomph.
Switching from accoustic to electric and viceversa is a breeze through fx loop with a simple setup I adopted after wathing this video. Full credit and thanks go to Peter J. Hamm!!!
Go to this link and see if it works for you. http://pietrosquared.wordpress.com/2-voice-guitar-and-the-variax/
Indeed, there are many more uses for the fx loop I have yet to explore, but at this moment I just use it as a volume gate for the Variax mags. Now I'm just waiting for the arrival of my new accessory....the Deeflexx! http://hoovi.at/deeflexx-2/?lang=en
Message was edited by: rodjoe
Currently Being ModeratedMar 22, 2013 9:55 AM (in response to CajunKev)Re: Why do I need a DT amp if I'm playing through the PA?
I use a Tech21 Power Engine 60 with my HD500 on stage just for extra sound. It does not color the tone at all. Is light weight and can be mic'd to the house or use the XLR out. We have stage monitors and in-ear monitors, but I like to have the amp there as it sounds better than the house monitor. (I am not using in-ears at the moment as we do not have a noise gate on the rig, someone drops a mic into a montior and causes feedback will kill your ears).
I will say doing it this way, you do not have the true tube sound many want, but I am happy with it, plus this way I can get some feedback into the pickups if I want.