BlueBrain
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Everything posted by BlueBrain
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If the clipping were happening at the input stage, one would expect to hear it consistently, any patch, not just specifically medium gain setups. Also, if it were a too-hot guitar input, turning down the volume on the guitar a bit should provide a simple resolution, but as I mentioned, I had tried five very different guitars and the only thing that worked was to lower the drive or the guitar volume to the point of zero distortion. Now I've found that trying different mics, adjusting bias, and keeping the bottom end modest seems to resolve it. It seems resolvable, but the solutions limit tone options. -
Hey all. Sooooo ... I really had been quite thorough in my earlier troubleshooting, trying different instruments/outputs/amps/levels in the chain, everything suggested to me via line6 support tickets, even going to a store to test another HD 500 with other guitars. Nothing was working. I'm managing now to dial out the clipping sound. It's still very easy to dial it in, and not entirely clear where it's being introduced. On the Blackface DBL with gain up I need to keep the bass low and switch to 4038 ribbon mic. I'm still not sold on the unit, so far it's wasted a LOT of my time, I don't think it should be this difficult to achieve a workable tone - but, those of you who said it was possible to resolve that clipping sound with proper settings seemed to be correct. I'm still not sure that it's a matter of gain staging, as if I leave the bass up even above 25% and leave the default mic selected, I can't dial out the clipping without lowering the master and/or drive to the point of zero or near zero distortion. I mean, you can introduce the same digital clipping sound via poor gain staging, of course, but so far what works to dial it out seems somewhat random, relating to EQ and cabinet/mic selection regardless of gain levels. I'm still not convinced it's all a matter of accurate reproduction of the original amps, but whatever the case, if it's digital clipping, why is there nothing in the user interface to show where it's occurring in the chain? The software should be able to detect that and the user interface should display it.
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Very interesting - I'll take my HD 500 back out of the box this weekend, will set it up again with exact settings matching yours & will see what comes of it. Thanks for the time you've taken to help!
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It's not on the computer end, I get it via USB or XLR through a MOTU. Not guitar, I've tried five. Not the unit, I've tried two HD500s. I also hear the exact same thing in that video I posted. I don't think I hear it on your sample. From what I can tell, it's mainly an issue on low gain amps with the drive at the point of giving just a bit of break-up, though I often hear it on higher gain stuff as well. This thread kind of went off the rails though, I hadn't intended for it to be about problem solving, I've already been through that extensively, including with Line6 support ... at this point I was just wondering whether people hear what I'm talking about or not. I was curios whether I just have more picky ears at this point ... if people are getting that sound but just not noticing it or not bothered by it.
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I'm tellin' ya, I hear that sound via USB, phones, XLR with a good signal to my MOTU, ... with any of the five guitars I've tried, on both the HD500s I've tried. I've spent extensive time trying to "dial it out" but only thing that works is to stick with perfectly clean tones. Whatever it is, it's not the recording. The signal out to the MOTU for those recordings wasn't too hot, and it sounded exactly the same on phones.
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Hey, that was really nice of you to take the time to do that. :) Thank you. The tone is higher gain than the type I was aiming for, I'd say try the Fender BDR normal with drive dialled in anywhere between 20 to 40ish, wherever it needs to be to just start to get a bit of break-up. I'll listen to your sample a little later when I can give it more attention, can't at the moment, but first quick listen my impression was that I didn't hear the clippy sound.
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Yeah, I hear you, I used to perform in show & tribute bands, I needed a wide variety of tone, hence I've been using Line6 from the original bean, the AX212, variax acoustic, and now the HD500. I'm also trying to make music; record it, specifically, and I picked up the HD500 on spec because of course the versatility appeals, but I can pick a preset or set up a new tone that is nothing but an amp with a bit of drive, grab my strat, tele, ibanez or gibson, and via XLR, USB or phones, I hear that nasty little clipping sound on top of the tone, and I've spent heaps of time trying to dial it out, hunting forums, back and forth with line6. I assumed for the past two months that my unit was defective, just resolved recently that it's not. Anyway, I realize it's working for a lot of people, so I was wondering if that's just because they don't notice or don't mind that clippy-distortion sound. Almost all of what I find for recordings produced with the HD seem to be high gain, and of course it's harder to hear that sound in a high gain tone (though I still do) and even harder in a mix. I finally found an extensive thread of people discussing this exact sound, calling it cross-over distortion, and it seems it is a particular issue on the HDs with low gain amps once the drive is up enough to get just a bit of break-up. That's the exact tone some of us want, a nice warm light crunch, hence me only providing the short clip with one tone in spite of it being an issue I hear on almost all presets and amp models. Anyway, just to be clear, it's not a recording issue. The signal out wasn't too hot, and that sound is there regardless.
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I didn't specify the guitar or patch details, because I've tried five guitars on two HD500s, I hear that unwanted distortion on almost any preset or new patch other than perfectly clean ones - any guitar, any output, every level in the chain tested. I wasn't looking for solutions in the thread because I already spent weeks on forums, back and forth with line6, out to the music store to check another unit, etc. The ONLY thing that has worked for me to eliminate that unpleasant clippy sounding distortion is to have no distortion at all, either by lowering the drive or the guitar volume to the point the tone is completely clean. Line6 said specifically that they thought the tone sounded good, that they'd be happy with the tone. That's what got me curious about how many people actually hear that distortion noise I'm referencing in the clip.
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I get that sound regardless of output levels, via XLR/USB/phones, have tried five different guitars on the front, two different HD500s to confirm it's not a bug, adjusted input impedance, doesn't matter where levels are at in the chain, I hear it on presets and on very simple patches consisting of nothing but a low-gain amp with the drive up just enough for a bit of break-up. The ONLY way I can seem to clear that clipping-type noise out of the tone is to lower the guitar volume or drive to the point there's no distortion in the tone at all. I was just curious how many others notice the sound and are or aren't bothered by it, but folks are quick to assume it's just user error.
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A few thoughts: 1) in my experience soundcloud pretty heavily compressed the file, so not sure how much of the shape of the waveform may be a result of that, 2) regardless, that "crossover distortion" noise is audible via XLR outs with a prime signal level into my MOTU, USB, or headphones out, regardless of any levels in the chain. The only thing I can do to eliminate it is drop the drive or the guitar volume WAY down until there's no distortion left at all. 3) I hear the exact same noise on the video link I posted 4) when I say it's "just how the POD performs" I'm quoting Line6. They listened to the sample in their "lab" - and they apparently all agreed that it was "a good tone" and sounded how it was supposed to sound. See, you're the first one (on here) saying it sounded terrible. This is what I was most curious about and intended in the post: I wanted to know how many people actually HEAR that nasty distortion, and whether they think it sounds fine or unacceptable. I think it's unacceptable, as does the profoundly amazing guitar player at the music shop (while trying out a new HD 500 at the shop to rule out it being a problem with my unit), as does my producer friend, etc. I was baffled to have Line6 reply that the tone sounded good to them. Anyway, I hadn't intended to argue that it's bad, I just wanted to know how many people hear it, but, yeah: "just how the POD performs" were Line6's words.
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Just to play devil's advocate here a bit: I shared the sample, and the video I linked to with a friend who used to engineer for years and then went on to produce big names in LA, now producing big names in Canada ... his diagnoses: "Yeah, that's digital. No, I don't have to try to filter that sort of thing out when recording from tube amps in the studio."
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I realize you weren't asking me, just replying to the other post, but for reference, I tried with multiple guitars with different pickups, multiple outputs, adjusted input impedance, all the levels in the chain, and the sample is a simple amp with no effects in the chain, drive probably around 40%. I didn't bother specifying anything because I hear this "crossover distortion" sound on almost every preset or new patch, whether it's a distortion pedal or a simple amp with a bit or a lot of drive. Sometimes it's more obvious, sometimes it's kind of subtle, and sometimes if there's an effect like a flanger after the amp in the chain it's not there. The ONLY thing I can do to eliminate it is by lowering the guitar volume or the drive on the amp to the point the tone is completely clean. In my clip I think you can hear it most clearly on the light playing half way through - it's the rattly distortion on top that falls off 3/4 of the way through each chord ring-out. https://soundcloud.com/potential178/pod-hd500-unwanted-distortion Line6 says that's how it's supposed to sound, but it just sounds wrong to me, and to a few others with very pro ears that I've run it past. I plugged into a Hughes & Kettner tube head at the store this weekend, dialled in a very slightly distorted tone like that, and most definitely didn't hear that sort of "crossover distortion." I don't mean to be a troll with this post, I was honestly very curious whether other people hear it in the sample and if they do, whether they find it acceptable or not.
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No, I'm going for slightly broken up, and I like the tone in general, but particularly from the mid point on with softer playing, there's an unwanted distortion on the surface that just sounds wrong to me, and to others. Listen really closely from the middle on, listen for that messy break-up that falls off about 3/4 of the way through each chord ringing out: https://soundcloud.com/potential178/pod-hd500-unwanted-distortion
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See, it's that jagged surface distortion on the softer playing half way through my clip in particular - I can't eliminate it it (have tried, very thoroughly) and I don't hear that on recordings of real tube amps. What I'm confused about is whether other players hear that distortion and just don't mind it, or whether they just don't really hear it at all. To me there's a nice warm very slightly crunchy tone underneath, and this nails-on-chalkboard dirty distortion on the surface, and I can't record with that, not for any kind of delicate playing in a subtle mix. Listen to my clip again from the mid point, do you hear what I'm talking about, and if so, do you think it sounds good? Honest question. https://soundcloud.com/potential178/pod-hd500-unwanted-distortion
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Hey there, thanks for the vid. To me (and a producer buddy I shared this with) the dirt on these doesn't sound like the dirt on the pod samples. The pod sample crossover distortion sounds digital and unpleasant to me.
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I hear you. I expect to have to spend time tweaking to get a great tone on anything, but not huge amounts of time try to eliminate something that sounds unpleasant - that's unacceptable to me. It's not how I want to spend my time when I'm trying to be creative.
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Hi Martin - thanks for the tip. I've troubleshot EXTENSIVELY to determine that it's not resolved by levels in the chain, guitar type, input settings, output, etc. It's just how the POD performs. That's why I didn't share the settings or ask for tips to resolve it, I've already been far down that road. At this point I'm just curious how many people actually hear the issue, think it sounds fine, think it's unacceptable, etc.
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Hey radatats, the distortion occurs on any amp, any output - it's not patch or output specific. From what I've read on other threads, some people manage to reduce it in a chain of effects with a lot of tweaking, but it doesn't seem that it can be resolved on a simple slightly dirty tone. Offashead, I think my unit is also going up for sale. I'm not sure after this whether to not trust modelling in general, or just line6's modelling. I think I'll go the route of collecting tube heads and recording with a redbox.
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Aaaa-ha! Found a big thread on this issue: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1061955 Peeps are comparing it to crossover distortion, and although at times it may be the result of poor gain-staging, it's often most noticeable on simple patches with just a low-gain amp with the drive pushed up just enough to get a bit of break-up, so it can't be dialled out. Whether it's an intentional part of the modelling or not isn't clear; however, nobody who can hear it likes it, and some give up on the HDs because of it. Many others don't seem to hear it, even in the clips where some find it quite obvious. I'm leaning towards selling my POD and picking up a tube head and a redbox. So, I'm still curious: do you hear it in my sample & in that video? I'm wondering just how many people can discern the wanted part of the distortion in that tone from that unwanted "crossover" distortion.
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On any distorted patch out of my HD500, I hear a sort of secondary distortion on top of the tone. It could be described as a digital clipping sound. I thought it was subtle at first, now I can't un-hear it. It's on any patch where there's distortion, whether it's an effect before or after the amp, or just an amp with the drive up enough to get some crunch. It's not the guitar, input levels, output, etc - my trouble-shooting has been very thorough. I thought maybe there was something wrong with my unit, but today I went and tested a second HD500 fresh out of the box and it sounded exactly the same. Line6 support has reviewed this sound clip and says they think this tone sounds good, that the sounds I'm hearing are an intentional part of the modelling. Forgive the lackluster playing: https://soundcloud.com/potential178/pod-hd500-unwanted-distortion I found this video as well, and I hear the same "digital clipping" distortion on his tone between 0:10 and 1:00: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tM2tP2w0s3Y#t=10 So, I'm wondering what you think of this tone. Does it sound fine to you? Do you hear the second level of distortion I'm referring to? Do you hear this on your own unit? Thanks in advance for your input!
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Hey all. Final update: I've spoken with an authorized service centre and they've told me that the only thing they could do to possibly resolve this sort of defect with the product is to replace the main board but that this would cost as much or more than just buying a new unit. I've told this to Line6 but their final response before marking the ticket as "assumed answered" was to take it to a service centre. The warranty on my unit has expired, but this problem was always there and the two techs I spoke with at different service centres agreed that the problem is mostly likely an always present hardware or software defect, not age-related failure. I've owned several Line6 products but based on the performance of this one and my customer service experience, this will be my last.
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In case anyone is monitoring this thread, after a bit of back and forth on a support ticket directing me to check input settings, etc, the final support reply has been: "At this point I think the best recourse is to take the 500 to a service center and have it checked out:" I think my unit has performed like this since it was brand new and I doubt it's a hardware defect. If it's my guitar input signal being too hot or bright, it's an issue with all three guitars I've tried, so perhaps it's hardware that needs to have a list of compatible guitar/pickup combos listed. It doesn't matter if it works well with some guitars, if it doesn't work with the ones I have, it doesn't work. I have to put this on the back-burner until early October. I will try again then to see if it can be resolved, but at the moment I'm feeling that it's just a faulty product and that chances are most or all of them sound like this and most users just don't notice the clipping distortion sound. It's my fourth line6 product but I think it will be my last. I need things that work, not waste my time. The more complicated their software/hardware is getting, the less faith I have that they can make it bug free.
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Hey radatats, thanks for the tip. It seems like if it were an output issue it would be clipping based on volume/signal level not on drive/distortion level, but I was keen to check this out regardless. Looks like the output on my unit has always been set to Studio Direct, so sadly, that wasn't the problem/solution. :( Thanks again for the suggestion!
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Just a quick update for anyone who is interested: so far tech support has just been asking me - if I have active pickups (I've tested it with three guitars, and it's only with drive/distortion so wouldn't seem to be a hot guitar signal issue in the first place) - if it's happening on every preset (I did start by saying "It seems to be on any amp model or distortion FX") - if it's happening on USB output since I mentioned I'm using a MOTU (I had already mentioned that I'd eliminated post-POD clipping, I get the distortion sound even via headphones out of the POD, and the issue isn't related to channel/master volume, it's specifically drive/distortion level) - to check input settings - the one thing I hadn't done, but whether they're set to default 1M, auto or 22k, doesn't resolve the problem. So, currently still no answer. I've spent more time with it, confirmed that it's any amp I try with any input setting, any guitar, and any output channel. It seems to me to clearly be a problem with the unit, either this one specifically, or a flaw present in all of these that most users just don't hear. I'm not sure what solution they can/will offer since the warranty is up, so I'm anticipating being SOL, but fingers crossed they surprise me.
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I'm in Canada and I have the POD HD500 floor board, which I purchased when it was new on the market. I never liked how anything distorted sounded right from the start but assumed it was user error and have just now invested the time to figure out that it's something wrong with the unit, not my guitar(s) or ignorance of how to set levels properly.