jclark5093

I'm using Reason 10 as my DAW, and whenever I load Helix Native, esp if I go to a user preset (a new blank slot or one of my previously made patches) I get auto patch changes even when the sequencer is not moving and no midi is being sent. Any ideas what causes this or how to prevent it? For example, I turn off the delay and reverb at the end of my patch (bypass) to hear the pure tone so I can edit the noise gate, and while I'm tweaking and playing, the reverb turns on for no good reason, and I look up and sure enough, I'm on snapshot 2, when I DIDNT MAKE ANY SNAPSHOTS because it's a BRAND NEW PATCH?! What gives? I'm on OS X 10.12.6 (I know, old, but still meets the requirements, and no I'm not upgrading my OS), and Reason 10.4d4. I'll check Ableton/Logic/PT but even if it *does* work normally in those, I want to use Reason as my VST host and I've never had any problems with any other plugin I've ever used (from Native Instruments, Waves, Roland, Novation, Toontrack, XLN, etc) this Line6 plug is the only thing that has ever shown such weird behavior. Thanks!

I know this post is kinda old, but last year I got an HX FX, and then I got a promo for "Helix Native for HX FX owners" and I think that's probably what OP was talking about? It's full version of Helix Native, just discounted for people who already own hardware versions. I got mine from Sweetwater, I assume it's available in general, though?

"Blame" is a strange word in this thread in general... I don't know who brought up the idea of blaming companies, but I think it's more along the lines of MESA marketing a cab that is "perfect for (insert your genre here) on stage!" and then you try it and you're *let down*. Were you let down by your own preferences, or the cab? Was I let down by the Line6 cabinets, or was I let down by my inability to love that sound? That's the crazy part of the attitude I'm seeing here. I'm sure everyone agrees that, for the most part, if you don't love a piece of gear, move on and you'll find the glass slipper you're looking for. But the odd thing in my Helix story is that the slipper fit perfectly, except the heel strap was a bother - but I didn't realize that's why my toes hurt! (I'm a rock climber, so this is actually a thing, that your toes can hurt from an ill-fitting heel cup!). Basically I didn't know where to start in my search for the "bug" in my signal chain, and that's why I came here, assuming people might know what I was talking about. I think next time someone gets a bad sound out of a Helix, people should respond with 3rd party IRs first (along with a patch recommendation for whatever artist tone they're after?) I've always believed that speakers have the most tonal contribution to a guitar tone, followed by cabinet, then pickup style, then preamp/tonestack, then scale length, then fret material, and *then* strings (for people who argue those details when using high gain pedals...) but in a recording situation (or live PA), the microphone choice and placement are probably 2nd or 3rd in the list. These are the *main things* that get most people to like Tone A vs Tone B (if they're modeled, real, etc, in a blindfold recording playback) and that's the thing that's got Line6 "signature" sound on it in this case (in my opinion). And that seems to be a choice they made, instead of giving me full-range normally mic'ed cab sims (or IR? I still don't know if it's DSP), and maybe that's so it will immediately fit in a live mix easier without EQ so you don't mud up a band? Not sure, but it sure as heck doesn't sound like a regular 57 stuck on the grill cloth of a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 12" speaker! Of course a 57 stuck on the grill cloth needs EQ, and maybe the Helix doesn't, but for *some* that might be a choice we don't want made for us... or at least advertise that it's happening so we aren't surprised by the sound? idk...

I love the direction of this thread, but I'll say you'd be free to blame Mesa for not making a cabinet that you like. Not that they will care or change, they'll say to get a different brand, because their product is clearly not for you. Can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, right? So it's a "fault" of the product - meaning a weakness or a flaw. The flaw is not it's sound, the flaw is that it is not universally loved. Every product has that flaw, but some of them will be perfect for you. What I did *not* say, however, was that helix is defective in any way. It does what it does on purpose. And like I said, I'm sure it has a place (as do MESA cabs, though I'm not sure where that place is...) but I didn't realize it was the cab sim making it sound that way until I tried a 3rd party one. Before doing that, I tried every different cab in the software, didn't like any of them. But what I *thought* was happening was that I just didn't like HELIX! That was an error in my logic, but that was the perception at the time. It's interesting that whatever pre-eq thing they did, they did it to EVERY SINGLE CAB in the helix. So if you never thought to load 3rd party IRs, you would never know if it was the fx or amp or impedance (for the hardware) or the EQ of the amp or pedals (the filter on the Helix RAT has a real quack compared to my real RAT or the one in the 11R - not "worse," just different). I could see someone returning a floor Helix because it never sounded good to them because ALL OF THE CABS SOUND THAT WAY. Sure, tweak all the parameters (which I didn't say was inherently bad, just has a bit of RTFM vibe to it), try all the models and settings, but still don't like the sound? Oh, that's because you don't like any of the X_______X in it (reverb, delay, cab, drive, etc). Of course you can use FX loops to put your own reverb/delay/drive or even amp (4cable) in it, but the fact that I have to pay for 3rd party stuff and do the work myself is an inherent weakness in this product. I'm not saying that's a problem or that it needs to change to suit me (and others with ears like mine) but it's a truth about the system, that's all. I'm not filing a complaint about it, I'm sharing my experience. I now think that the full fat HELIX would be a great choice (depending on material quality, haven't felt one in person) for any touring band that uses more than 4 analog pedals and an amp bigger than a Blues Jr. I'm on board with the Line6 sound, just not their cab sims - I wouldn't want to send that to FOH... Meanwhile, I'm using the IR block (in my HX FX) for acoustic body IR for my electric cello, never once thought to use it for a speaker cab!

But that's not a reasonable position either, because the cab sims are persistent, and color every signal chain you design. If you're using a clean power amp into a guitar cab, then fine, I'll conceded that any "amp modeler" should be as easy to dial a tone as a real amp, but when there are so many parameters, it could conceivably be easy to fail in a specific tone (without studying the manual for a month, which I'd argue *is* a fault of the device in an age when people can navigate smartphones and computers without reading manuals like we did back in the 90s). In my case, my persistent inability to achieve a sound that was good to me was the gear's fault.

So I can't imagine not being able to "dial in" a sound on a real amp... if someone can't do that, they have no business working in the field, imo... Now, some have techs to tweak things (internally) or set up pedals with switchers and all that, but that's when you're in "artist/performer mode" and can't think straight about all that stuff. At home, even those people can chain some pedals into an amp and then set the gain and EQ on a JCM800... Monitoring could be an issue for some, especially if they're used to hearing an amp in the room and now they're switching to headphones or monitoring cab sims (FRFR or whatever). That's an adjustment period. Personally, I have a harder time playing an amp in a room because I've spent so much time in the studio in front of nearfield monitors with a mic'ed cab (real or simulated doesn't seem to matter, since the sims sound so real now) but I can see some people complaining if that's new to them (or if they use an amp and leave the cab sim on, but that's common sense stuff). My point of disagreement with you here is that you say anyone should be able to get a GOOD sound out of it. And that's subjective. What sounds good to you might not be pleasing to my ears. And loads of people hate on the 11R because they say the cab sims are sub-par, but I like playing through them, and find them very easily mixed into a full arrangement (as a mix engineer). And, as an engineer, I don't think the Helix sounds so great out-of-the-box. If I was working as a tech for a guitarist and swapped their (real gear) for a Helix, they would ask why it sounds different. If I used 3rd party cab IR, they probably would never know that their amp was gone. If I used 11R cabinet, they also might not know their amp was gone. This is a downside to the Helix, plain and simple. I didn't say it sounded BAD, I didn't say it sounded like trash or that I hate it, in fact I think I said it sounded pre-eq'ed which could fit well in a mix, and if I land a pop gig touring with some pop/rock band, I'll probably get a full Helix and not an 11R, partly for that reason. It sounds pre-polished, and that means less work! But it doesn't sound as much like a real mic'ed up cab (I guess because they weren't mic'ed the same way a cab usually is in a studio or even live at a decent venue?) Again. Good is subjective. Maybe the patches I made would sound good to you, so I did nothing wrong. The fault was with my preferences? So that makes it my fault for not liking it? Or is it the product's fault for not meeting my expectations? Either way, if I bought a floor Helix and didn't like it (for these reasons) I would return the Helix, not myself.

I am of the belief that if I can't, then either A) I don't know how to use it (in which case your reply *would* have been helpful if you pointed me in a direction of education), or B) it doesn't sound good TO ME. So I think your position is a little lofty for someone who's using a modeler... Reminds me of conversations with tube snobs, but kinda inside-out or upside-down... I think the cabinets/speakers/microphones (or some combination of the 3) in Helix are either intended to be "mix friendly" or something like that, which might not lend itself to all types of music, and definitely sounds odd when just playing solo. Maybe it's actually *better* in a mix, I don't know, didn't try it yet. But the out-of-the-box sound was definitely not what I have heard from any real cab in a real iso booth. I'll assume it's either the room they used to record the cabs, or the microphones, or the mic placement "algorithm." I don't know how much of Helix is IR and how much is DSP algorithms, so I'm not sure what it is I'd like to blame in this case! But either way, the amp modeling on the 11R and Helix seem to be almost identical (didn't do a phase invert test to check for null, because I assume they're not actually 100% identical, not a useful test), and when run through a 3rd party cab IR, I can't tell the difference even when PLAYING LIVE of which thing I'm hearing back. So I appreciate your position of feeling the futility of these posts, but this time I (the OP) got a great answer along the way, and solved the problem I was having, with the help of the community - which, I think, is the entire purpose of these types of forums to begin with! Congratulations, internet! We did it!

To be honest, since getting the 11R I kind of forgot that's a thing because I treat it like an amp (I don't record the dry-thru, so it's committed to audio very early in production) and not because I'm a purist or any nonsense, but I find that for me personally, it speeds up my workflow to just re-record something if I want to tweak tones, or work with what I have, because otherwise I'll tweak forever and never finish anything! Especially working on a deadline, it's too easy to get caught up in nonsense. Plus, if I had the space, I would record with real amps every time, and I don't think I'd be looking at software to replace them, but I can definitely see how that could benefit a lot of people in commercial work (and I guess hobbyists too, but that's just personal preference if they want headphone practice and recording jams with more tones available without spending the money for a full modeler, things like NI Guitar Rig have been popular for a long time with that crowd)

Interesting, I didn't know the story - I wonder if those cab sims are IR or if they are DSP? I think they really sound the same, so that part might be recycled... and the interface looks more usable than the 11R, but there are still some real limitations in routing and pedal *type* selection (can't have 4 fuzz boxes, etc).

Awesome, thanks for the thoughtful reply. The reason I'm looking at Line6 now is basically duplicate effects. On 11R (and Headrush) you can't have 4 overdrive/fuzz pedals in one patch/scene/rig. I want to run 2 delay units, 2 mod units and 2 drive units (for my *basic* rig), and the dual send/return is something I'll be using as well for an EHX SuperEgo (freeze) pedal, which I don't think any multi-fx board can do yet, and a Pigtronix Infinity looper (midi sync'ed 2-slot stereo looper, which I don't think the Helix looper can even midi-tempo sync to bar-lengths, can it?). The amp sims are not as critical for me, until I start thinking about gigging without an amp, and maybe the full fat Helix has DI out so my bass guitar rig can be easier to load/unload/backup and use in-ears for monitoring? Same with my electric cello - but basically, I was looking to consolidate my pedalboard and clean up workflow. Thought about the big BOSS loop controller where you can rearrange pedal order (like the GigRig from TPS), but it cost more than the HX FX! This thread all started when I saw that Helix Native was only $70 for HX owners and wondered if I should kick the 11R out of my studio, but I haven't found an *advantage* to the Helix Native software yet. If there might be one, someone let me know?!

TL;DR: The amps sound IDENTICAL (it's the cabs that are making it different) __________________________________________________________________________________ I have responses to everyone here, but don't know how to multiquote on this forum (sorry!) I tried a Fender Deluxe Vibrato (traditionally a combo, but in modelers you have to choose a cab so I did 1x12) and also did a Marshall style amp because those were the two I was certain should be modeling the same amp (other names I'm not sure what amp they are supposed to be, but J45 and Deluxe Vibrato are easily deciphered). As for the cab sims, yes, the biggest difference is the mic placement! That seems to be my primary complaint and why I compared it to a "yamaha keyboard" because it is very bright/harsh and in-your-face, where I'd prefer a cab be mic'ed with a close/medium and room mic, and that's the vibe I get from the 11R (also the EXACT SAME MODELING as the Headrush unit, apparently - makes sense, both made by the same people. There are some A/B tests and I literally can't tell them apart from each other, so I'm guessing the Headrush is basically the 11R in a floor-unit format). And here's the real kicker to this whole thread: I turned off cab simulation in both, and used a (kinda bad) 3rd party cab IR in my daw, and guess what? The 11R and Helix sounded 100% identical! SO to everyone who says "new unit will sound different, duh, isn't that why you bought it?" Well, no, I'm testing before committing to a floor unit, which is about form factor and not about tone. Just want to make sure I can get a usable tone (and maybe purchase the software at discount if it's worth it). Seems like the cabs in there are not to my tastes, but I'll try mixed cabs and see if I can find some free decent sounding 3rd party IR I guess for testing? Don't want to invest if I'm not going to use it, you know... Bottom line? I dialed front-panel settings on the Marshall J45 into a 3rd party IR on both the 11R and the Helix (native) and could *not* tell the difference. They sounded the same, and they FELT the same. The amp modeling is on point. I don't think any of the brands are really getting "better" than others at amp modeling at this point, except maybe super clean fender tones which are the hardest to nail IMO, but again that might be a cab modeling thing. In a room with a fender amp, it's an open back cab, lots of bass coming out the back, interesting frequency curve, especially in a small/medium room, because it's not about the amp - it's about the baffled cabinet producing standing waves in that room at some frequencies and not others. It's a whole experience, and you can't get that even with a real cab mic'ed up. But when you DO mic up a cab, it sound like (to me) what the 11R cabs sound like. If I could put those in a Helix, I would have zero problem getting a tone that I like. It's all about those microphones and their placement (and combination, and room they were recorded in, which might be why i like the 11r ones better?) **Thanks Everyone!!**

New to the L6 world, once bought a PodHD500 on sale then returned it 3 days later, underwhelmed (probably same sound I'm hearing now?) I've used an 11R for years now, and some people complain about cabs and say IR is better now, but I don't think I mind the cab sims in this unit. In fact, I think that might be the biggest issue I have with the Helix sound (other than the RAT being kind of quacky when you use the filter compared to my ProCo hardware rat). I used the 11R input at 1M Ohm + Cap for both A/B, and just used a RAT or Screamer into Fender and Marshall type amps. My favorite on the 11R is the open back 1x15 cabinet, which Helix doesn't have, so I didn't compare that, but it gives you an idea of the type of tone I prefer, maybe? Usually using an AKG 414 type mic, but sometimes an 87 or 121. For this test, I used a Fender Delux Vibrato 1x12 and a Marshal J45 4x12 on both the 11R and Helix Native. My interface is a Saffire Pro 40 firewire, and I'm using small Yamaha HS5 nearfield monitors. Got the levels as close to each other as possible. I set the buffer size to 64 samples, and monitored both through my DAW (using SPDIF and *not* any audio/preamp inputs on my Saffire). So the only A/D was guitar into the adjustable impedance input on the 11R. The Helix felt "tighter" and more "photoshop" in the distortion, especially amp distortion. 11R by comparison felt "heavy" and unpredictable (in a "tube" kind of way). Also, a bit more "air" in the 11R maybe? Or something, I can't quite figure out the EQ difference to match them... The only way I can describe is like this - the 11R produces a recording that sounds like a recorded amp, like I put a cab in an iso booth with a microphone. Helix sounds more like pre-eq'ed guitar tones you'd get out of a $5k Yamaha keyboard that does "guitar" sounds. I don't know how to phrase that in a useful engineering way! I don't know what it is about those sounds that always kind of sound "fake," so if anyone knows, please help with my descriptors! I tried moving the mic further away on the Helix software and that helped a bit, but it was still lacking in the low end. I don't mind cutting some frequencies in the end mix, but I don't want to boost to create something that isn't there. Also, I'd like the option to use this live at some point. I got an HX Effects that I just started to learn yesterday (pain in the lollipop with bare feet, btw!), and it's decent, especially into my 11R, but the idea of switching to Helix (or native, as it's on sale for $70 for HX owners) is suddenly off-putting and I wonder if I should have spent $400 extra for a Headrush unit with the Eleven sounds that I would probably like more? This is all assuming that the Helix Native software sounds identical to the Helix board (and will feel the same, given low enough latency with good drivers? I'm getting Input Latency 4ms, Output Latency 2ms which is like standing across the room from a real amp, but idk how much latency the VST adds).