Monkey_Man

I'm a little surprised at this. IMHO the Kemper's impossible to beat for recording, Mathias. Many folks have foregone micing up their amps in favour of the KPA. Perhaps you'll be able to get closer to what you want sound-wise with the Helix. If indeed you do, that's great, man! It's all good. We truly are spoiled for choice these days.

If I may, mate: No, you have experienced latency "using the unit alone", but you haven't perceived it. As I've said a number of times already, those, such as your esteemed self, who aren't affected by latencies such as those imparted by the HD, don't know how good you have it / lucky you are! Enjoy, mate, and may the scourge of throughput latency never bang of your door in the middle of the night!

LOL

I very much appreciate that you went to all this trouble, md. I could have done it myself years ago, but didn't see the point as the difference was like night and day to me. Thank you again for further exploring this, md. Out of respect and appreciation of your effort, I'll address each possible cause you mentioned: Accuracy of modeling (especially "sag") I programmed 4 presets for each amp model - clean, overdriven, distorted and lead. Sag was used perhaps 15% of the time. Cab type and number of speakers (4x10 vs. 1x8 or 1x10) At least half a dozen cabs were used for the presets, and I did audition all of them many times as I built them. Latency (though I don't think it's likely; 1-foot distance, as you said) ... and yet I did experience it and am determined to not have to go there ever again, such was the frustration that built over time. Speaker breakup on the traditional cab, vs. clean speaker playing the *sound* of that on the FRFR system The speaker-breakup thing was irrelevant; I did most of the programming using HD25-1s plugged directly into the unit. Different settings on the amp/amp model All the onboard models were used, each with 4 stages of clean->heavy dist., and all exhibited the problem. Difference between which amp was modeled and which real amp is used The real amp was a Vox 4w (I think - I borrowed it) combo (the cream one), and yes, it was different from all the models offered in the HD500. I couldn't help that, but even standing 6 feet away the latency difference was a no-brainer. Bear in mind that the L6 was used with headphones as well as my home stereo system, so I'd have thought the h'phone source at least would have compared favourably considering the 6ft distance difference. Placebo effect/confirmation bias Valid observation, but not in this case. I wasn't looking for anything when I borrowed the amp; my brother insisted I try it out, that's all. I was shocked at its immediacy and therefore its playability, even 'though I'd forced myself to tolerate the HD's delay and at the time was only curious to hear how the Vox sounded. The latency thing couldn't have been further from my mind; I'd blocked it out as a matter of budgetary necessity. Further to this, I'd prattled on and on to my tube-obsessed brother for years about the fact that I was more than happy with how Line6's modelling sounded (except for the fizz and lack of cream in the HD unit). I'd tried to convince him to buy one but couldn't even come close, and that's an understatement of immense proportions. So you see, if anything, I'd convinced myself that the tube combo wasn't going to be up to much. Forgetting the sound, which was sparkly and kinda stellar, I was seriously floored at how much better I played from the first note onwards than I'd ever played before. It wasn't because of the sound; no sound change has ever had that effect on me before. It had to be because of that immediacy I spoke of, at least, that was and still is my conclusion as I've not heard a better explanation. The strings felt as if they had a life of their own, and any touch, scrape, pluck or whatever I did was instantly heard and felt, a far cry from what I'd become "used" to. Dozens of other things I haven't thought of Yeah, it sure is possible there's something else going on here; I do have an open mind. It's just that I'm no newbie in the playing / writing / recording area, and I know latency when I experience it. Just as you did, I considered all the other usual suspects, and it simply had to come back to this. I mean, if you chug along playing muted, precise picking, and you hear a time interval between your action and the resulting sound, IMHO that can be nothing if not latency, and that is indeed what happened... with all amp models. Whilst I had FX programmed for all the presets I mentioned earlier, I didn't dare use them for fear of exacerbating the problem. In a way I feel bad that I hadn't asked about this years ago; that way I'd at least have had the option of working through it with you. The horse has bolted already, I'm afraid. My first notes through the Kemper produced that same sense of immediacy I spoke of, and there can be no question of this. My tube-obsessed brother had the same experience. He's selling his JVM410H, which he's sworn for years he'd keep for life and that it was the only amp he'll ever need. Ironic, really, 'cause my mission to convert him to the digital side of things, hopeless as it had seemed after many years of pushing it uphill, was literally accomplished in seconds when he played his first few notes. For the record, I was 4ft away from my Opals, so there was 7ms total delay time - 4 through the air and 3 from the Kemper (2.5 probably, but I'm happy to be conservative). He sat roughly 7ft away for a total of around 10ms. Your 1ms figure is truly food for thought. I'm confident I'll / we'll figure it out eventually, not because it matters anymore, but 'cause I just don't like not being able to explain things, as I suspect you do too! Once again, thank you for all you've done, md! Nicky

I agree with everything you've so thoughtfully stated, jdosher. Substitute the Axe-FX with a KPA in my case and the same rings true throughout. It's an important point, IMHO, that you made regarding the target market; it's not really aimed at us, but since I jumped on the L6 bandwagon at PODv1 and bought every one 'till the HD500, I suspect I'll always, at the very least, maintain an interest as to what the boffins at HQ are up to. The company has played a huge part in the history of amp modelling, after all, and I'll continue to be a fan of the options the Variax provides (I have two and have owned half a dozen). I'll keep watchin', along with you, bro'...

Not the KPA beast. You'd be needing loads of mango chutney if the question had referred to it as opposed to the Helix. I like your comments on the other features you'd have liked to have seen, by the way, jdosher.

I have to say, mbenigni, that I agree 100% with everything you said and your logic.

Well, I've tried every manner of selection before cut-and-pasting and so on, but couldn't get mbenigni's quote from page 16 into the same post as those from page 15. I'm not used to this forum software; spent most of my time on phpbb. Sorry for having to use 2 posts... Hey mbenigni, good to see ya bro'. Regarding the first sentence in "bold" type: As I said in at least two of my 3 posts where I asked the question, the Kemper provides a "constant-latency mode" option. It effectively rounds-out the throughput delay to around the maximum that would "cover" all possible rig and FX-processing demands. This way, layered / reamped tracks shouldn't require phase correction. ... and the 2nd section: Funny, that's exactly what the Kemper can do, but it's so efficient that the "worst-case" scenario we've both referred to is... not bad at all. In fact, I'm perfectly fine with 4ms; it only adds 4 feet to the 3 or 4 I'm away from my monitors. It's the additional delay imparted by the Variaxes as well as the HD500 that simply take it over the edge for me. See you 'round mate, and thank you for your concern.

Yeah, I figured that's what you meant, Guitarzan; I was lazy - I meant to clarify that I hadn't assumed that that was how you monitor, but was asking just to be sure. You see, had this been the case, then your question would've been perfectly understandable from my POV, as one wouldn't expect that someone accustomed to huge chunks of latency's gonna be sensitive to a "small" amount. The fact that the section beginning with "Why do I feel punished... blah... blah..." followed my reply to you was because that's the way it flowed. I responded to the posts in order and yours was last. I was aware of this but hoped you'd not attribute all that followed as being directed to you. Again, I was lazy; I should have perhaps placed a line like "------" or something after my reply to you... anything to separate the sections. Sorry for my laziness, mate! I felt really embarrassed by my description of my "ears" (as would any monkey!). I believe that's the first time I've ever imparted that information in a forum, and it's not something I've even said to my friends IRL. As I said, it wasn't your input that prompted that - I just couldn't think of another way to discourage yet another bunch of folks from jumping in and saying the same thing. It's not that I mind. It's just painful (too much to explain now) and time-consuming to respond to each well-intentioned comment implying that I shouldn't be noticing it with the HD500 or whatever. Anyway, enough of this minutia. Thank you again for your interest, GT, and I'm truly sorry about my "lazy" answer. Awesome news! Thank you ever so much, Jose! You da man, man. :D

The question can indeed be answered, radatats. I consider you lucky that you don't notice the delay / "disconnection". How I envy you! For me, I'm afraid, it's a big deal. I did (I think) refer to the Kemper's throughput latency. If you missed it, it's 2ms -> less than 4ms, depending on the rig and effects involved. You can set the unit to maintain a constant latency across all rigs for reamping / layering integrity, but that's a compromise of course, and the resulting figure is around 4ms. I'm going from memory here; it's been a while since I checked these facts. Again, consider yourself lucky, bro', and thank you for chiming in. The answer from Kemper was simple enough; it was concise and complete. I can see no reason why L6 hasn't provided the figures yet. Yes, obviously a range will have to be quoted in order to account for the simplest chains through to the most complex / processor-intensive ones. I find it hard to believe the company wouldn't be aware of the throughput time; I'm betting benchmark testing would've been instigated at strategic points during the development of the unit/s. You're lucky you didn't notice it with the HD500; that one was the worst in the POD line for me thus far, and I've been with it since POD v1.0. Then again, I could just be getting more sensitive to it in my old age, but I doubt it. I am open to this possibility of course. LOL Phil, you too are a lucky bugger! Wow, so you record with latency? I have to use a desk with parallel feeds 'cause I can't handle it at all. Mate, it wouldn't matter if 1000 users jumped in and said they'd never perceived latency through any digital guitar product before. Good for them, I say. Unfortunately, as you know, repeating a mantra doesn't make it so, so whilst I'm sure it's true for these folks, it ain't for me. Why do I feel like I'm being punished for this sensitivity? I'm an engineer with perfect pitch and acute timing sensitivity; I simply cannot help this, and I'm certain I'm not the only one who experiences this stuff; I just don't consider myself special or unique in any way. Anyway, hopefully L6 can offer me something, even if it's an answer along the lines that the company doesn't know. I'd find that impossible to believe, but any sort of an answer apart from the deafening silence would be very much appreciated by me and I suspect a few others. Yes, they'll be out there; I'm apparently taking a hit for the team. Thank you all for your time; I really do appreciate it and I regret that this issue might have been nothing more than an entertaining or annoying distraction for some.

Same here. Page 7 and page 12, where I rephrased / embellished it. I don't want to be a pain, so I've resolved to just continue to check the thread every day...

We'll have to organise compatibility testing somehow. Rejection by the Scottish kidney of sub-par, cheap liquor is a distinct possibility...

That was 5 pages ago. I've asked the question again, and at least two others have plus-oned and bumped the thread. So... bump. For what it's worth, the Kemper's is 3ms. No feeling of being disconnected there. In fact, the sense of immediacy is, well, exhilarating. I'm putting it down to the fact that the profiles are only 1 or 2k in size; the CPU chip is over 3 years old...

Straight to studio monitors or headphone amp, as well as the h'phone outs on the unit itself. Might I suggest you try plugging an analog guitar or the JTV with PUs active via 1/4" jack to something like a small tube combo if you're somehow able to? Humour me. You'll see what I mean about "immediacy" and feeling disconnected, or in this case, connected. The difference is like night and day, and I can't imagine how any musician could possibly miss it. My guess is that you may, as I implied, need to recalibrate your senses by trying the above exercise. If you still don't feel the difference, then I say more power to you; you're a lucky bugger and I can't tell you how much I envy your position! Thanks for readin', bro'... and go the 'Pies. Digital Igloo, I can't seem to find an answer from you on the throughput-latency question I asked 4 or 5 pages back. Do you have a figure in ms for, say, an analog-source guitar through the Helix to its main outs? Any response will be appreciated.

I've only one question, DI: Has throughput latency been drastically reduced, or has the increased available DSP been commensurately annulled by the increase in code complexity and concurrent (parallel and FX) simulation demands? I had a major issue feeling "disconnected" from the guitar through the HD500, and this problem was obviously exacerbated when I plugged either of my JTVs into it. Any sense of immediacy and "connection with the instrument" was lost. I cannot overstate what an issue this was for me and how it prevented me from playing; the joy was lost, I'm sorry to say. Thank you for hosting this Q&A mate; it's much appreciated by all here, I reckon. EDIT: Sorry if this question has already been asked; it's 7AM here now and I started reading the thread at 5:30! Eyes really burning now and I realised I could well have missed it if this was so. Off to la la land now, mate. Thank you.

Wha... really? How sneaky! I'm really not up with all this technology stuff; even on the music side I try to KISS, so I do find this a bit creepy. I s'pose "they're" making sure I'm not a "bot". Fair enough, but I fear I'm getting a little old for this stuff. Thanks for that, pianoguyy.

A-ha! That x'plains it, mate. I've read regularly, at least every 1 or 2 weeks, but haven't posted in a while. Doh! Fixed the avatar anyway. I mean, a man's gotta get his priorities right, no? LOL Thank you again, Phil, Nicky EDIT: I just realised that this must also be why Safari asked if I wanted to save the password etc. I answered "no", 'cause it already has this info. I'm not sure if I should say yes or not. Hmm... suck it and see?

Aah... thank you, Phil. Much appreciated, mate. Still no idea why my avatar and posts have disappeared. All account details remain the same; even the eMail address is up to date, and I've logged in to download software just last week, as I do regularly. Strange, and as I said, hugely disappointing; it's kinda like losing a song, when you lose words / thoughts you wrote, especially if trying to help someone. Hooroo, and thank you again, Phil, Nicky

I spent 3 hours on a post last night, only to be confronted by the following message when I tried to submit it: This post will need approval from a moderator before it is shown. This restriction will be lifted when you have 1 more approved posts I'm posting this in case said effort disappears into the ether. If nothing else, it may get me closer to being able to post again without "approval". This is new to me; I've not been restricted in any of the many forums I've posted in in the past, including this one. AFAIK, I've not been rude to a single soul throughout the 15 years I've been doing this, so I must say this "vetting" procedure feels, for want of a better description, very 1984. Hopefully that huge post makes/made it through the x-ray machine... EDIT: PHEW! Looks like it made it through. Ripper. Just had a look at my CP to see if I could find an explanation for this "censorship". My account details haven't changed, although I think my avatar is gone. However, there is no record of my posts. Yup. All my posts are gone. Well done, L6. I'm devastated; many more hours down the drain.

I always intended to start a thread to thank you all for your support in the past, the entertaining and informative reads I've enjoyed here, and not least Line6 who've managed to provide go-to tones for me since the early to mid '90s. Whilst I'll be hanging onto my Variaxes, along with the 4 power supplies and half-dozen USB interfaces I've purchased just last week to compensate for my not being able to use VDI, which I'm a huge fan of, I'm truly sad to say that for the time being at least, my epic POD journey has been suspended. I don't doubt that L6 will learn from feedback it receives on the HD line, but for me, it was the proverbial straw. I need to practice as I'm a terrible player, and the thousand-or-more hours I put into the HD editing over 2 years would obviously have been much better spent doing exactly this! We live and learn... I more slowly than others, it seems. Anyway, rather than start that thread, I'm going to use this opportunity to thank you all again for a fun and informative forum. So many good folks have plunged a lot of their time and energy into it; I appreciate that. Good stuff. I'll still monitor things here to track L6's progress with the POD line, as well as to try to keep up with all things Variax, as I've always been a HUGE fanboy, as I was until fairly recently of the POD line. Don't get me wrong, I still reckon the original PODs, the POD 2s and PODxts were the best units for me, with the X3s a little behind them only 'cause of the increased complexity. It's just that the HDs, for me at least, have fallen a long way behind. Hi-Fi, powerful, scratchy-sounding... and impenetrable! Anyway, now that I've thanked you all, a few more boring specifics for those who may be interested. Feel free to skip this stuff as the bottom line has already been articulated. Thank you all again! Meambobbo wrote: And if you think the Kemper is a slight tone improvement, I would question if you've ever played one. I agree. Talk of a "slight" improvement and even a mention of there being a 5% difference are borne out of ignorance in the truest sense of the word, meaning, "to ignore". It's not about stupidity; it's about being uninformed. Meambobbo wrote: i had a great opinion of line 6 from 2003 until about 2 years ago ... and I from the early '90s until about 2 years ago. HD500 Owned every POD since 1.0, including 2 POD 2s, 3 PODxts, 3 BassPODxts, 2 XTLives, an X3 Live, HD500 as well as the Pro versions of the POD 2.0, BassPODxt and PODX3. The HD500 killed it for me. I considered reverting to the PODxt or even the POD 2, especially given their cost these days on eBay. I used to use "manual mode" on those puppies, and it only ever took seconds to get cream out of them. I can't for the life of me get full-fat cream out of the HD. I spent 2 years editing the HD500. My health issues made this a physically painful procedure, no matter the position I placed the unit (and myself!) in. 2 years of pain, followed by perhaps 3 or 4 months to "fully" recover. What I have to show for this effort is a set of 4 presets for each amp - clean, overdrive, heavy and lead. I took painstaking care to optimise all parameters so as to render the presets, to my ears at least, almost universally useful. That is to say, using practically any axe one could think of, one would have good starting points with any of 'em. All scratchiness (the main challenge) was dialled out without the use of EQ! That, I can tell you, took some doing. I'm still proud of what I was able to achieve, and would have been happy to stick with these presets, if it weren't for one thing: The unit's latency. It's even worse when coupled with one of my Variaxes. That immediacy one experiences from, say, a nice tube combo, was sorely missed. I'd say I'm a crappy guitarist, having spent my time thus far learning audio engineering, keys, bass and vox, so it could be that this factor is more important to someone in my position than to an already-proficient guitarist. Nevertheless, as crappy as I am, through the HD I play like a crappy version of myself, and believe me, that's crappy! The one time I got to borrow my step-dad's Vox valve combo (one of those white 4w jobs), I played out of my skin, which for the uninformed was obviously still crappy, but waaay less so. I learned a valuable lesson that day, mid-way through my 2-year HD tweak. I stubbornly pressed on 'though, and as I said, all worked out well, but for that damned latency. BTW, this is with all FX off, in case you're thinking it's just 'cause I piled 'em on or something. This throughput delay seems to kill my ability to "connect" with a guitar. I don't know how else to put it. So, more than any shortcomings sound-wise, it's the unit's latency that finally did me in. Sure, the editing was a nightmare, but like all nightmares, it ended, and right now I should be enjoying the fruits of all that labor. FWIMBW, I have an ear, a damned fine one, although I'm sorry I felt I needed to say that; it seemed necessary to address the inevitable conclusion many might have come to when I said I was a crappy guitarist that I just don't know how to tweak or that I wouldn't know a good sound if it fell on my head. I can assure you, this is not the case. Been a bass player, vocalist, synth programmer and AE for 30 years, so chasing and tweaking sounds is second-nature to me. Variax I've owned 6 Variaxes starting with the V'ax 700 right through to the JTV59, JTV69, JTV89 and 89F. It literally took 6 guitar purchases and 6 or 7 years of tweaks, repairs, wholesaler swaps (parts and guitars) and modifications to arrive at the two I kept - the 69 and 89F. The 69 had 14 or 15 issues upon arrival, but the 18 months of work I put into it was well worth it as now it's just "there". I bought 3 spare (4 total) power-supplies and 6 USB interfaces for my Variaxes just last week, now that I've decided to leave the PODs for the time being. I've always loved the VDI system, so much so that I still haven't to this day used a battery! Hopefully the power stomp-units I bought will do the job from now on. I already miss the VDI thing, but what can one do? If I use the HD500 (for example) for its VDI port and run the unaffected guitar out of that into a Kemper, I daresay I'd still be introducing unnecessary latency, a larger foot print, a more failure-prone option than the power-supply footswitch and, last but not least increased power consumption (actually a real issue for me). So, bottom line, IMHO, is that the Variaxes rock, provided you can find something you're happy with. Perfection you won't get, and you'll probably have to be prepared to do a whole lot of setup-tweaking, but, again IMHO, it's all worth it with these puppies. Meambobbo wrote: My Pod HD guide is what... 14 really long web pages? My Kemper guide is 1 page. My 2nd priority for a processor / modeller, beaten only by the latency factor. Haven't had to open the manual yet, 3 weeks in. Meambobbo wrote: Anyway, I don't want to poo poo the HD too much. I just really love the Kemper. Same here... and my Variaxes. As I implied earlier, I'd love to see L6 get the POD line back on track; I suspect it's already been done and we're just not aware of it yet, so I'm not suggesting anyone go out and ditch his or her unit. I'd say, if you're not 100% happy, see if you can hang in there 'till the boffins at L6 release the next iteration. I feel certain our squeals of agony, as well as positive feedback, would have been heard. Surely! Again, thank you for your time, folks, and sorry about the rant. I've nothing to add, and as I'm a slow typist (this took hours!) I'm not likely to respond or partake in a debate about this stuff. I only wanted to update where I'm at with my L6 gear, having been a huge fanboy for so damned long! Folks have questioned why one would even bother to do what I'm attempting with this post. May I say that some, including myself, can't just throw things out without first acknowledging the support and friendship encountered, as well as the usefulness of the product in question. All the best, folks, Nicky