Monkey_Man

I'm a little surprised at this. IMHO the Kemper's impossible to beat for recording, Mathias. Many folks have foregone micing up their amps in favour of the KPA. Perhaps you'll be able to get closer to what you want sound-wise with the Helix. If indeed you do, that's great, man! It's all good. We truly are spoiled for choice these days.

If I may, mate: No, you have experienced latency "using the unit alone", but you haven't perceived it. As I've said a number of times already, those, such as your esteemed self, who aren't affected by latencies such as those imparted by the HD, don't know how good you have it / lucky you are! Enjoy, mate, and may the scourge of throughput latency never bang of your door in the middle of the night!

LOL

I very much appreciate that you went to all this trouble, md. I could have done it myself years ago, but didn't see the point as the difference was like night and day to me. Thank you again for further exploring this, md. Out of respect and appreciation of your effort, I'll address each possible cause you mentioned: Accuracy of modeling (especially "sag") I programmed 4 presets for each amp model - clean, overdriven, distorted and lead. Sag was used perhaps 15% of the time. Cab type and number of speakers (4x10 vs. 1x8 or 1x10) At least half a dozen cabs were used for the presets, and I did audition all of them many times as I built them. Latency (though I don't think it's likely; 1-foot distance, as you said) ... and yet I did experience it and am determined to not have to go there ever again, such was the frustration that built over time. Speaker breakup on the traditional cab, vs. clean speaker playing the *sound* of that on the FRFR system The speaker-breakup thing was irrelevant; I did most of the programming using HD25-1s plugged directly into the unit. Different settings on the amp/amp model All the onboard models were used, each with 4 stages of clean->heavy dist., and all exhibited the problem. Difference between which amp was modeled and which real amp is used The real amp was a Vox 4w (I think - I borrowed it) combo (the cream one), and yes, it was different from all the models offered in the HD500. I couldn't help that, but even standing 6 feet away the latency difference was a no-brainer. Bear in mind that the L6 was used with headphones as well as my home stereo system, so I'd have thought the h'phone source at least would have compared favourably considering the 6ft distance difference. Placebo effect/confirmation bias Valid observation, but not in this case. I wasn't looking for anything when I borrowed the amp; my brother insisted I try it out, that's all. I was shocked at its immediacy and therefore its playability, even 'though I'd forced myself to tolerate the HD's delay and at the time was only curious to hear how the Vox sounded. The latency thing couldn't have been further from my mind; I'd blocked it out as a matter of budgetary necessity. Further to this, I'd prattled on and on to my tube-obsessed brother for years about the fact that I was more than happy with how Line6's modelling sounded (except for the fizz and lack of cream in the HD unit). I'd tried to convince him to buy one but couldn't even come close, and that's an understatement of immense proportions. So you see, if anything, I'd convinced myself that the tube combo wasn't going to be up to much. Forgetting the sound, which was sparkly and kinda stellar, I was seriously floored at how much better I played from the first note onwards than I'd ever played before. It wasn't because of the sound; no sound change has ever had that effect on me before. It had to be because of that immediacy I spoke of, at least, that was and still is my conclusion as I've not heard a better explanation. The strings felt as if they had a life of their own, and any touch, scrape, pluck or whatever I did was instantly heard and felt, a far cry from what I'd become "used" to. Dozens of other things I haven't thought of Yeah, it sure is possible there's something else going on here; I do have an open mind. It's just that I'm no newbie in the playing / writing / recording area, and I know latency when I experience it. Just as you did, I considered all the other usual suspects, and it simply had to come back to this. I mean, if you chug along playing muted, precise picking, and you hear a time interval between your action and the resulting sound, IMHO that can be nothing if not latency, and that is indeed what happened... with all amp models. Whilst I had FX programmed for all the presets I mentioned earlier, I didn't dare use them for fear of exacerbating the problem. In a way I feel bad that I hadn't asked about this years ago; that way I'd at least have had the option of working through it with you. The horse has bolted already, I'm afraid. My first notes through the Kemper produced that same sense of immediacy I spoke of, and there can be no question of this. My tube-obsessed brother had the same experience. He's selling his JVM410H, which he's sworn for years he'd keep for life and that it was the only amp he'll ever need. Ironic, really, 'cause my mission to convert him to the digital side of things, hopeless as it had seemed after many years of pushing it uphill, was literally accomplished in seconds when he played his first few notes. For the record, I was 4ft away from my Opals, so there was 7ms total delay time - 4 through the air and 3 from the Kemper (2.5 probably, but I'm happy to be conservative). He sat roughly 7ft away for a total of around 10ms. Your 1ms figure is truly food for thought. I'm confident I'll / we'll figure it out eventually, not because it matters anymore, but 'cause I just don't like not being able to explain things, as I suspect you do too! Once again, thank you for all you've done, md! Nicky

I agree with everything you've so thoughtfully stated, jdosher. Substitute the Axe-FX with a KPA in my case and the same rings true throughout. It's an important point, IMHO, that you made regarding the target market; it's not really aimed at us, but since I jumped on the L6 bandwagon at PODv1 and bought every one 'till the HD500, I suspect I'll always, at the very least, maintain an interest as to what the boffins at HQ are up to. The company has played a huge part in the history of amp modelling, after all, and I'll continue to be a fan of the options the Variax provides (I have two and have owned half a dozen). I'll keep watchin', along with you, bro'...

Not the KPA beast. You'd be needing loads of mango chutney if the question had referred to it as opposed to the Helix. I like your comments on the other features you'd have liked to have seen, by the way, jdosher.

I have to say, mbenigni, that I agree 100% with everything you said and your logic.

Well, I've tried every manner of selection before cut-and-pasting and so on, but couldn't get mbenigni's quote from page 16 into the same post as those from page 15. I'm not used to this forum software; spent most of my time on phpbb. Sorry for having to use 2 posts... Hey mbenigni, good to see ya bro'. Regarding the first sentence in "bold" type: As I said in at least two of my 3 posts where I asked the question, the Kemper provides a "constant-latency mode" option. It effectively rounds-out the throughput delay to around the maximum that would "cover" all possible rig and FX-processing demands. This way, layered / reamped tracks shouldn't require phase correction. ... and the 2nd section: Funny, that's exactly what the Kemper can do, but it's so efficient that the "worst-case" scenario we've both referred to is... not bad at all. In fact, I'm perfectly fine with 4ms; it only adds 4 feet to the 3 or 4 I'm away from my monitors. It's the additional delay imparted by the Variaxes as well as the HD500 that simply take it over the edge for me. See you 'round mate, and thank you for your concern.

Yeah, I figured that's what you meant, Guitarzan; I was lazy - I meant to clarify that I hadn't assumed that that was how you monitor, but was asking just to be sure. You see, had this been the case, then your question would've been perfectly understandable from my POV, as one wouldn't expect that someone accustomed to huge chunks of latency's gonna be sensitive to a "small" amount. The fact that the section beginning with "Why do I feel punished... blah... blah..." followed my reply to you was because that's the way it flowed. I responded to the posts in order and yours was last. I was aware of this but hoped you'd not attribute all that followed as being directed to you. Again, I was lazy; I should have perhaps placed a line like "------" or something after my reply to you... anything to separate the sections. Sorry for my laziness, mate! I felt really embarrassed by my description of my "ears" (as would any monkey!). I believe that's the first time I've ever imparted that information in a forum, and it's not something I've even said to my friends IRL. As I said, it wasn't your input that prompted that - I just couldn't think of another way to discourage yet another bunch of folks from jumping in and saying the same thing. It's not that I mind. It's just painful (too much to explain now) and time-consuming to respond to each well-intentioned comment implying that I shouldn't be noticing it with the HD500 or whatever. Anyway, enough of this minutia. Thank you again for your interest, GT, and I'm truly sorry about my "lazy" answer. Awesome news! Thank you ever so much, Jose! You da man, man. :D

The question can indeed be answered, radatats. I consider you lucky that you don't notice the delay / "disconnection". How I envy you! For me, I'm afraid, it's a big deal. I did (I think) refer to the Kemper's throughput latency. If you missed it, it's 2ms -> less than 4ms, depending on the rig and effects involved. You can set the unit to maintain a constant latency across all rigs for reamping / layering integrity, but that's a compromise of course, and the resulting figure is around 4ms. I'm going from memory here; it's been a while since I checked these facts. Again, consider yourself lucky, bro', and thank you for chiming in. The answer from Kemper was simple enough; it was concise and complete. I can see no reason why L6 hasn't provided the figures yet. Yes, obviously a range will have to be quoted in order to account for the simplest chains through to the most complex / processor-intensive ones. I find it hard to believe the company wouldn't be aware of the throughput time; I'm betting benchmark testing would've been instigated at strategic points during the development of the unit/s. You're lucky you didn't notice it with the HD500; that one was the worst in the POD line for me thus far, and I've been with it since POD v1.0. Then again, I could just be getting more sensitive to it in my old age, but I doubt it. I am open to this possibility of course. LOL Phil, you too are a lucky bugger! Wow, so you record with latency? I have to use a desk with parallel feeds 'cause I can't handle it at all. Mate, it wouldn't matter if 1000 users jumped in and said they'd never perceived latency through any digital guitar product before. Good for them, I say. Unfortunately, as you know, repeating a mantra doesn't make it so, so whilst I'm sure it's true for these folks, it ain't for me. Why do I feel like I'm being punished for this sensitivity? I'm an engineer with perfect pitch and acute timing sensitivity; I simply cannot help this, and I'm certain I'm not the only one who experiences this stuff; I just don't consider myself special or unique in any way. Anyway, hopefully L6 can offer me something, even if it's an answer along the lines that the company doesn't know. I'd find that impossible to believe, but any sort of an answer apart from the deafening silence would be very much appreciated by me and I suspect a few others. Yes, they'll be out there; I'm apparently taking a hit for the team. Thank you all for your time; I really do appreciate it and I regret that this issue might have been nothing more than an entertaining or annoying distraction for some.

Same here. Page 7 and page 12, where I rephrased / embellished it. I don't want to be a pain, so I've resolved to just continue to check the thread every day...

We'll have to organise compatibility testing somehow. Rejection by the Scottish kidney of sub-par, cheap liquor is a distinct possibility...

That was 5 pages ago. I've asked the question again, and at least two others have plus-oned and bumped the thread. So... bump. For what it's worth, the Kemper's is 3ms. No feeling of being disconnected there. In fact, the sense of immediacy is, well, exhilarating. I'm putting it down to the fact that the profiles are only 1 or 2k in size; the CPU chip is over 3 years old...

Straight to studio monitors or headphone amp, as well as the h'phone outs on the unit itself. Might I suggest you try plugging an analog guitar or the JTV with PUs active via 1/4" jack to something like a small tube combo if you're somehow able to? Humour me. You'll see what I mean about "immediacy" and feeling disconnected, or in this case, connected. The difference is like night and day, and I can't imagine how any musician could possibly miss it. My guess is that you may, as I implied, need to recalibrate your senses by trying the above exercise. If you still don't feel the difference, then I say more power to you; you're a lucky bugger and I can't tell you how much I envy your position! Thanks for readin', bro'... and go the 'Pies. Digital Igloo, I can't seem to find an answer from you on the throughput-latency question I asked 4 or 5 pages back. Do you have a figure in ms for, say, an analog-source guitar through the Helix to its main outs? Any response will be appreciated.

I've only one question, DI: Has throughput latency been drastically reduced, or has the increased available DSP been commensurately annulled by the increase in code complexity and concurrent (parallel and FX) simulation demands? I had a major issue feeling "disconnected" from the guitar through the HD500, and this problem was obviously exacerbated when I plugged either of my JTVs into it. Any sense of immediacy and "connection with the instrument" was lost. I cannot overstate what an issue this was for me and how it prevented me from playing; the joy was lost, I'm sorry to say. Thank you for hosting this Q&A mate; it's much appreciated by all here, I reckon. EDIT: Sorry if this question has already been asked; it's 7AM here now and I started reading the thread at 5:30! Eyes really burning now and I realised I could well have missed it if this was so. Off to la la land now, mate. Thank you.