Helix > P.A. Out of the monitor out and into passive monitor?

[Riki1]

I've been thinking of trying something out.

 

I've been looking into active speakers.

We have 2 P.A systems, one for vocals and drums, and my one which I put my keyboard through and have a small personal monitor on stage.

 

What I'm think is could I go from the helix into the P.A then use my Yamaha Emx 512sc power mixers monitor out into another passive speaker (Mackie C300z) and use that for my onstage sound. The main speakers are Mackie c300z so wouldn't it make sense to get 1 more so I'm hearing exactly what my P.a is sounding like?

Or is there some other benefit I'm missing if you use powered speaker?

 

Obviously my setup is unique as I play 40% of a gig on piano and keys and 60% on guitar, just wandering what people 2 cents are?

 

I currently have pedals and a fender twin reverb 65 RI that I'm going to gig with the next 3 weeks and I hope that sounds good with the helix but I'm gonna do some experimenting on soundcheck with the helix going out xlr into my P.A and have a listen

[jbuhajla]

Using powered mixer to passive speaker or using a powered speaker will give you the same results. Just be sure to set your EQ flat on the mixer, and you should be good to go. 

[DunedinDragon]

Using powered mixer to passive speaker or using a powered speaker will give you the same results. Just be sure to set your EQ flat on the mixer, and you should be good to go. 

 

I'm not sure that's exactly true.  The higher end powered speakers come with a significant amount of DSP processing power to help manage the frequency response curve (i.e. flatten it out for different situations) which is much more extensive than a simple crossover.  But in this case since the main PA is using unpowered speakers and he's wanting to match that sound, I think the idea of using a monitor amp and unpowered speaker will come closer than a higher end FRFR speaker.

[jbuhajla]

I'm not sure that's exactly true.  The higher end powered speakers come with a significant amount of DSP processing power to help manage the frequency response curve (i.e. flatten it out for different situations) which is much more extensive than a simple crossover.  But in this case since the main PA is using unpowered speakers and he's wanting to match that sound, I think the idea of using a monitor amp and unpowered speaker will come closer than a higher end FRFR speaker.

Agreed on both points. 

[Riki1]

Agreed on both points.

 

So if I went down this road you say a passive speaker (Mackie c300z is what I already have, or EVZlX12) would be better than an active speaker in my case as I'm already using a 500 watt power amp mixer feeding two main FOH speakers, it has a split Amp to also drive the monitor out which volume and eq can be matched or changed comapared to the speakon main outs.

 

So if I make some ideas with my gear and when I've dialled it in buy a 3rd speaker that should sound better?

 

I'm really hoping using preamps and just the effects through my 85 watt tube amp will sound good - but after making a couple of test presets and using my studio mo itor speaker I was really surprised how good it sounded compared to modelling I've heard before

[DunedinDragon]

So if I went down this road you say a passive speaker (Mackie c300z is what I already have, or EVZlX12) would be better than an active speaker in my case as I'm already using a 500 watt power amp mixer feeding two main FOH speakers, it has a split Amp to also drive the monitor out which volume and eq can be matched or changed comapared to the speakon main outs.

 

So if I make some ideas with my gear and when I've dialled it in buy a 3rd speaker that should sound better?

 

I'm really hoping using preamps and just the effects through my 85 watt tube amp will sound good - but after making a couple of test presets and using my studio mo itor speaker I was really surprised how good it sounded compared to modelling I've heard before

 

That's true, but only  because of a special situation you described in which 1) you're using an amp and passive speaker setup and 2) you want what you hear to best represent what the audience hears.  However, it likely won't have the same articulation and clarity as what you heard  using your studio monitors.

 

It's not surprising at all that your presets coming through your studio monitors surprised you compared to modeling you may have heard previously.  Modeling like any technology has advanced considerably based on advancements in the underlying DSP chips that are being used.  Without knowing what studio monitors you're using, there's a pretty good likelihood that some form of DSP processing is being used in those as well to maintain a relatively flat frequency response across the entire range of the frequency spectrum.  This type of full range flat response (FRFR) in conjuction with the advanced DSP used in the Helix modeling provides an extraordinarily accurate audible representation of the amps, cabinets, mics, mic placements and effects being used in your patch.  This is also the reason why passive style systems have fallen significantly in the marketplace in favor of active systems because you really can't apply the DSP type processing used to achieve FRFR response in a system in which the amp and speaker aren't married together in a single enclosure because that type of processing is based on the known and measured behaviors of both the amp and speakers, not to mention that DSP is an electronic digital type processing which requires a power source.

 

All that being said, what you were listening to on your studio monitors (assuming those are powered studio monitors) is a true FRFR response.  That's the typical arrangement many of us use on stage with the Helix using higher end powered speakers like the Yamaha DXR or QSC K sereies speakers.  As you likely heard in your experiment with your studio monitors, this gives you a polished studio sound in a live environment.  It's not exactly the same as a true guitar amp or what some people refer to as an "amp in the room" sound.  However, the amp in the room sound isn't what your audience hears once it's mic'd and sent through the PA.  The mic and placement of the mic changes the sound somewhat, for the good or for the bad.  So the choice many of us have made to go to a full FRFR setup will be different than a traditional guitar amp setup, but it will be a more accurate reflection not of the traditional stage sound, but of the sound heard on a typical professional recording...and that can be a big adjustment for some people.

 

Were you to implement that type of FRFR system as your on stage system, you still have the problem that what you send direct to the FOH will be different because you're not dealing with FRFR speakers in that case.  It may be acceptable because there are some pretty decent passive PA systems, but it won't be as accurate a representation as what you heard on your studio monitors or from a FRFR monitor setup on stage.

 

Hopefully this all gives you enough information about the logic of the discussion we've been having about your setup that you can make some decisions about how you want to go with your setup rather than blindly following advice from a bunch of strangers on the internet.    :blink:

[Riki1]

Thanks for all that info.

[Riki1]

Still not sure if I should buy a decent active frfr and go from that into my P.A as I'd likely have the speaker behind me like an amp which the audience will hear also so it's not solely for monitoring purposes for just me.

I'd like to have the onstage speaker just as loud if not louder than the P.A speakers ( we mainly play small/medium places)

[jbuhajla]

Still not sure if I should buy a decent active frfr and go from that into my P.A as I'd likely have the speaker behind me like an amp which the audience will hear also so it's not solely for monitoring purposes for just me.

I'd like to have the onstage speaker just as loud if not louder than the P.A speakers ( we mainly play small/medium places)

In that case, a powered speaker may be useful for your application.