Noob question on signal paths

[neuk01642]

So another one for you... suspect I'm going to become tedious before too long ;oD

 

I've noticed that on all the presets that time based effects come after the cab block... is there any reason for this? 

Obviously in a real rig these effects come after the amp but before the cab. Is there any reason this can't be emulated on Helix? The reason I ask is that I'm looking at a FoH/Backline set up where the FoH feed takes IRs and the backline doesn't, so putting a split in before the cab block. As it stands this would me the cab misses out on all the time based effects a situation that would be rectified if it's possible to move the time based stuff to after the amp but before the cab.

 

Let me know.

 

Matt

[shanecgriffo]

you can put them wherever you like..

use a separate amp and cab block

and put a delay between them!

[neuk01642]

you can put them wherever you like..

use a separate amp and cab block

and put a delay between them!

 

Well that's all good then.

Play time tonight me thinks! 

[zooey]

Different block orders sound different, true for every type of processing. Delay before distorted or pedal amp means the echoes pile up in the distortion, making more, and making the echos interact with the live playing, which is either cool or a mess or both. After amp but before reverb is cleaner, just repeats the amp's output.Echo between amp and speaker is similar to after the amp, but a bit different, again worth a listen. Echo after verb is unusual, kind of odd, but worth a try sometimes.

 

Really, try everything! Why not! Plug the output of an amp into a pedal, or plug two amps into one cab. Unlike real gear, you won't hurt anything :)

[GenoBluzGtr]

"unlike real gear, you won't hurt anything"....  this is a broader statement than just this topic... I was thinking the other night about some of the cab/speaker/mic combos.  In the real world, playing a 100 watt amp into a Celestion Blue or two would NEVER work unless I kept the amp volumes very low.  

 

No blown speakers, no impedance mis-matches between amp and cabs, no overdriven ribbon mics because  they're too close to the speaker... another GREAT reason that Helix is so fun.  Combinations that are not even possible in the real world can sometimes be an awesome tone!!

[hal3001]

I've actually always wondered the same thing.  As you've said, in the real world, a reverb pedal would be placed in the loop after the pre-amp but before the power amp (and to the speaker).  Now placing the reverb after the speaker would be better for spatial recreation type reverbs but an emulation of a reverb pedal placed after the speaker (which the designers never assumed would be placed after cabs/mics) seems a little odd.  I know, the nice thing about the Helix is the ability to put anything pretty much anywhere you want, but I've always wondered why the default patches didn't go from gain effects -> amp -> spatial/delay effects -> cabs. 

[DunedinDragon]

I've actually always wondered the same thing.  As you've said, in the real world, a reverb pedal would be placed in the loop after the pre-amp but before the power amp (and to the speaker).  Now placing the reverb after the speaker would be better for spatial recreation type reverbs but an emulation of a reverb pedal placed after the speaker (which the designers never assumed would be placed after cabs/mics) seems a little odd.  I know, the nice thing about the Helix is the ability to put anything pretty much anywhere you want, but I've always wondered why the default patches didn't go from gain effects -> amp -> spatial/delay effects -> cabs. 

 

One of the paradigms I came to very early on with the Helix which may be helpful to you is that patches in the Helix are far more similar to the way physical signal paths might be assembled in a studio rather than on a simple amp and effects pedal system.  We get trained to think of things like reverbs as being placed between the pre-amp and amp simply because that's a convenient way to organize it, especially if it's a built-in reverb.  But many studio recordings have opted for other arrangements to get a different feel for reverbs and other time based effects such as mixing a reverb and delay together using parallel paths simply because there's more freedom to do things like that in a studio environment on a track by track basis depending on the sound you want.

 

If you think of the signal chains from that perspective, it opens up a much wider range of options for bringing more polished studio sounds to the live stage.

[hal3001]

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I had to start looking at it as well.