Can't dial in Helix Native to sound right

[benetbenet]

Hey,

 

I recently got a Scarlett Solo 3rd gen and installed Helix Native. It sounds horrible. I tried multiple headphones, guitar cabs etc, the sound clean is fine but with overdrive it starts to become a huge mess. I will attach a sound clip. It sounds very fuzzy and terrible overall, not realistic at all. Here's the thing though, I am a huge fan of Helix and I know it sounds amazing so I know there is something wrong with my setup whether it's my DAW or gain staging or the physical unit (Scarlett Solo)...

 

Initially I focused on gain staging on basically felt that it sounded better with the input gain all the way down (on the inst input of the Scarlett) but the problem is that as soon as I would put an OD or crank the drive, the sound becomes terrible again. I tried low and high cuts. Tried different headphones and monitors. Used multiple guitars too to rule out a potential problem there too. The input gain on the Scarlett 3rd gen isn't like the 1st gen so it's not clipping at all. I play single-coils, not active pickups or anything crazy. I also monitor closely the peak input on the Native software and it never goes beyond -18dB so the problem isnt there either. I tried setting the input gain on the sotware to -20dB and it makes the problem go away somewhat but at that point the amps are no longer realistic since the input gain they see is so low.

 

What's strange is that it sounds good until there is a significant amount of overdrive but for example, the KOT that was recently added in 2.80 does sound like an Analogman KOT so I know that the software works.

 

Tried different DAWs (Cantabile Lite and GarageBand) with same results and made sure that I had no pluggins running on the track or the master.

 

I think it's something faulty with the Focusrite Scarlett but I'm a bit suprised since it's a well-know decent unit. It may not be as good as the Helix DI but it can't imagine that it could be this bad. The input impedance on the unit is rated at 1.5M ohms which is clearly suited for guitar.

 

 

 

Sorry for the terrible playing and sound and thanks for any help!

[rd2rk]

Set the Helix out (I use an XLR) that you're connecting to the Scarlett to mic. Set the Big Knob on the Helix to NOT control that out (UNITY).

Set the Scarlett's Instrument button OFF (or use one of the mic inputs on the back).

Turn the Scarlett's gain all the way down. Play as loud as you normally play (BIG LOUD CHORDS!), turning up the Scarlett's gain till you hit a Yellow bar, then cut it back.

In Native, set the Input around -36db. That should have you peaking around -24db, leaving lots of headroom for transients.

Works for me!.

[benetbenet]

Hey man thanks for the answer, I think I will pick up an LT in a couple months but for now I’m only fiddling with Helix Native. 

 

I’ve played with the Helix at friends houses and thought it sounded amazing to be honest but I just plugged in mostly, didn’t mess around with the settings although for the last month I have watched a lot of YouTube videos on the top modelers to understand how they work so I’m decently familiar with Helix and stuff like mic distance, high cut, IRs and stuff like that.

[rd2rk]

Then assuming you're going straight into the Scarlett (or through pedals), use the INSTRUMENT switch, but all the rest remains the same. If using pedals, start clean, then pay close attention to the gain staging in the pedals, keeping the Scarlett's meter in the green with a clean signal and at all pedal settings. Getting Native to sound like a real Helix is all about the gain staging.

[benetbenet]

Did all that but results are bad as shown in sound clip. Or maybe there’s something I’m not seeing.

[rd2rk]

5 minutes ago, benetbenet said:

Did all that but results are bad as shown in sound clip. Or maybe there’s something I’m not seeing.

 

Attach a copy of the preset and I'll have a look at it. What guitar are you using? Any pedals between guitar and interface?

[benetbenet]

9 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Attach a copy of the preset and I'll have a look at it. What guitar are you using? Any pedals between guitar and interface?

 

I'm using a Mexican Standard Strat and no pedal, straight into the Hi-Z input of the Scarlett Solo 3rd gen. This preset is basically the factory preset of the JTM-45 on the normal channel. I am actually not using any of the pedals in the chain. I just cranked the drive and past 6/10 it sounds horrible. I tried to mess around with hi/low cut, bias and bias X but nothing helps tremendously although bias/bias X seem to help a tiny bit but make the sound worse in other ways. Thanks for taking a look

JTM-45-Cranked.hls

[rd2rk]

You sent me a setlist. Be sure to select export from the PRESETS line.

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

I duped your preset - JTM45 Amp+Cab, Drive dimed. Set as I described with a Hiway1 Strat (slightly higher output PUPs than yours). Sounds exactly like it should.

I think your problem is in your DAW. Download Reaper (FREE unlimited trial) and try it there.

If you need help with the setup let me know.

[rd2rk]

I was just looking at the Scarlett Solo 3rd gen (I have a 2nd gen 18i20) and noticed it has a Phantom power button. You don't have that ON, do you?

[flash1228]

I have a Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen which I use with native and almost exclusively use high gain patches with great sounds/success. I came from an HX Stomp using the same speakers, cables, guitars, etc. To me, it sounds great. Using the same settings with patches I copied over. I'm playing through two JBL 308P MKIIs and running Native in Cakewalk on Windows 10. I set my input to instrument, input gain (interface) where it's still green or maybe a flash of yellow when I strum a super hard chord, interface volume at max (adjust volume in patch), computer volume at max, input gain in Native set to -7.5 so that it peaks at around -12 with hard chords, and monitors set to +4dBu. Your results with levels may vary with input gain settings. All my guitars have pretty high output pickups (Alpha/Omega, EMG, Dirty Fingers) so I've got quite a hot signal coming in. The input gain is close to off on the interface. Hope this helps!

[rd2rk]

15 minutes ago, flash1228 said:

input gain in Native set to -7.5 so that it peaks at around -12 with hard chords,

 

-7.5 is HIGHER than -12. You'll be peaking too close to 0. The settings I gave are the L6 recommended settings. If you're not getting enough signal in your DAW you can always turn it up, but start where I suggested.

 

No offense flash, if it works for you, cool, but for troubleshooting purposes I'm thinking that L6 knows what they're talking about.

 

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helix-native-plug-in.1786588/page-113#post-25887560

[flash1228]

Maybe I worded it wrong or more likely you understood it wrong. What I'm referring to is lowering the input slider in Native (as you can see, it's adjustable) by -7.5db as to decrease the incoming signal even further. Now hopefully I haven't lost you here, but that then puts my actual input level at that -12 we referenced earlier. So if we want to wrap that all up and really drive it home. My input level WAS too high, so decreasing it by 7.5db I brought it nearer to the suggested level. It worked in my specific scenario and I added my experience in the hopes it could help benetbenet or somebody else who may stumble onto this thread. See, that's how this whole forum/community thing works 

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, flash1228 said:

Maybe I worded it wrong or more likely you understood it wrong. What I'm referring to is lowering the input slider in Native (as you can see, it's adjustable) by -7.5db as to decrease the incoming signal even further. Now hopefully I haven't lost you here, but that then puts my actual input level at that -12 we referenced earlier. So if we want to wrap that all up and really drive it home. My input level WAS too high, so decreasing it by 7.5db I brought it nearer to the suggested level. It worked in my specific scenario and I added my experience in the hopes it could help benetbenet or somebody else who may stumble onto this thread. See, that's how this whole forum/community thing works 

 

No need to get snippy flash. Maybe either or, but we're both just trying to help the OP, so maybe you should get a few more posts under your belt before you start telling me "how this whole forum/community thing works". You posted info that seemed misleading. I commented on it and linked to my source. You seem to have inferred some snarkiness on my part. None intended. That's part of the problem with internet forums, intent doesn't always translate well.

 

PEACE! :-)

 

[benetbenet]

9 hours ago, flash1228 said:

I have a Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen which I use with native and almost exclusively use high gain patches with great sounds/success. I came from an HX Stomp using the same speakers, cables, guitars, etc. To me, it sounds great. Using the same settings with patches I copied over. I'm playing through two JBL 308P MKIIs and running Native in Cakewalk on Windows 10. I set my input to instrument, input gain (interface) where it's still green or maybe a flash of yellow when I strum a super hard chord, interface volume at max (adjust volume in patch), computer volume at max, input gain in Native set to -7.5 so that it peaks at around -12 with hard chords, and monitors set to +4dBu. Your results with levels may vary with input gain settings. All my guitars have pretty high output pickups (Alpha/Omega, EMG, Dirty Fingers) so I've got quite a hot signal coming in. The input gain is close to off on the interface. Hope this helps!

 

Interesting thanks... The Scarlett Solo should sound identical to the 2i2. May I ask which DAW you are using? Right now even if I put the input gain in Native at -20dB I still get that fuzzy sound with an OD pedal activated and that's with the input gain on the Solo set to 0. The clean sounds are fine though.

 

I tried Amplitube and the sound had the same type of issue so I'm thinking it's either the DAW or my interface or my stupidity. Probably the latter but can't figure it out.

 

[benetbenet]

9 hours ago, rd2rk said:

I was just looking at the Scarlett Solo 3rd gen (I have a 2nd gen 18i20) and noticed it has a Phantom power button. You don't have that ON, do you?

 

No phantom is not available on the guitar input of the Solo, it's a 1/4" input only and it's not flashing. The only thing that's flashing is the USB indicator on the device and the INST showing that I selected the instrument input. By flashing I mean turned on (sorry english is not my first language).

[rd2rk]

benetbenet - 

 

You haven't sent the preset, so I freed up a setlist and imported the setlist you sent. It's your Factory 1 setlist, and there's no preset called JTM-45 cranked.

Can you send the preset for me to look at?

[benetbenet]

9 hours ago, rd2rk said:

benetbenet - 

 

You haven't sent the preset, so I freed up a setlist and imported the setlist you sent. It's your Factory 1 setlist, and there's no preset called JTM-45 cranked.

Can you send the preset for me to look at?

Thanks for putting up with my noobiness. 

 

It's just a basic jtm-45 preset that's pretty much like the preset from factory but with more drive.

 

 

JTM.hlx

[benetbenet]

I played quite a bit today and I think that maybe my problem is two-fold and I'll explain clearly as it might help some newcomer to Helix.

 

First of all, I've had only two tube amps and they were small Fenders (a champ 600 and a 10 watt that I don't remember the name off). I've had solid state before that. The thing is I was never really able to play them cranked because I lived in an apartment with thin walls so in a sense even if I owned tube amps, I'm still quite new to the sound they have cranked. I certainly have never played a cranked JTM-45 or any legendary amps cranked. Might have plugged into them at a guitar store/friend's house at reasonable volume but that's it. I don't gig. So I think that I expected certain sounds that were not realistic especially for the type of amps that I have loved the most to hear on records/youtube over the years namely the JTM-45/Tweed Bassman/Tweed Deluxe. The thing is those amps are exactly the ones that sound "bad" to me in Helix with the drive high. I think a big part of it is that my inexperience in real life with them but now I also suspect that my pickups on the Strat I was lended are too high especially the neck pickup, hence the flubby sound I'm getting with cranked Tweeds... My experience is much better with Metal amps even though I don't have any interest in them but they do sound "right" to me unlike the tweed style amps. 

 

Anyway I need to sleep it's like 3 am in France right now and tomorrow I am going to continue messing with Helix and lower those pickups to see if that helps. 

[rd2rk]

While you're sleeping I'll have a play with the preset, but just a couple of thoughts...

 

If you crank the old tweeds and then add distortion on top, you WILL get a "flubby" bottom end. That's how the real amps sound. When I listened to your sound clip I thought that it didn't really sound BAD, like digital distortion bad, it actually sounded kind of good, like J Mascis/Dinosaur Jr good. Not my favorite sound, but of a type that some actually seek. I thought, maybe there's something in your setup that's adding digital nastiness, which is why I got into all that gain staging talk. It could just be, as you've suggested, you just need to play around with it some more. You might try the new shelving and tilt eqs to tighten up the bottom end. Helix is a great design, HW and SW, but there is a learning curve, especially if you have little experience with the real deal.

 

As to pickup height on your Strat, google for the Fender recommended settings and start there. The Mexi Strat PUPs are not especially hot, certainly not as hot as basic HBrs, and I'm pretty sure the PUPs in my Highway1 are hotter than your Mexi Strat. As long as you're keeping your meters in the green, you should be good.

[benetbenet]

18 hours ago, rd2rk said:

While you're sleeping I'll have a play with the preset, but just a couple of thoughts...

 

If you crank the old tweeds and then add distortion on top, you WILL get a "flubby" bottom end. That's how the real amps sound. When I listened to your sound clip I thought that it didn't really sound BAD, like digital distortion bad, it actually sounded kind of good, like J Mascis/Dinosaur Jr good. Not my favorite sound, but of a type that some actually seek. I thought, maybe there's something in your setup that's adding digital nastiness, which is why I got into all that gain staging talk. It could just be, as you've suggested, you just need to play around with it some more. You might try the new shelving and tilt eqs to tighten up the bottom end. Helix is a great design, HW and SW, but there is a learning curve, especially if you have little experience with the real deal.

 

As to pickup height on your Strat, google for the Fender recommended settings and start there. The Mexi Strat PUPs are not especially hot, certainly not as hot as basic HBrs, and I'm pretty sure the PUPs in my Highway1 are hotter than your Mexi Strat. As long as you're keeping your meters in the green, you should be good.

 

Thanks for your help rd2rk. Initially I too was under the impression that it was a gain staging issue since Helix Native is known to be tricky in that area. I was really getting bummed about this whole thing. After lowering the pickup today and playing for half an hour, I think that it was mostly my ignorance of the sound these amps make at full volume and the default height of the pickups not being suited to my ears for these Tweed/JTM/Divided Duo style amps. I don't like when the sound gets massively out of control. 

 

To my ears, I'm getting much better tones in part due to the fact that I adapted my style to the inherent flubbiness of these amps. One thing I tried to change is how I play chords. Since these amps don't have good string separations when pushed hard, is it the case that players tend to hit the notes individually as opposed to loudly strumming chords?  

 

 

I had played this strat with tube amps before and it didn't create any problems but I think Helix is really sensitive to input in a way that's probably realistic so these small differences make a huge difference to a cranked JTM 45 or Divided JRT 9/15. If I had those amps in my home and played at sensible volume, I'm sure that flubbiness would be absent since I wouldn't crank these amps.

[rd2rk]

18 minutes ago, benetbenet said:

One thing I tried to change is how I play chords. Since these amps don't have good string separations when pushed hard, is it the case that players tend to hit the notes individually as opposed to loudly strumming chords?  

 

 

One thing you can do (if you can't tame the flubbiness with EQ and you REALLY want to use THOSE specific amps) is to play smaller chords - use the forms on the higher strings. Lots of blues and jazz players do that, leaving the low range to the bass player.

[benetbenet]

48 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

One thing you can do (if you can't tame the flubbiness with EQ and you REALLY want to use THOSE specific amps) is to play smaller chords - use the forms on the higher strings. Lots of blues and jazz players do that, leaving the low range to the bass player.

 

Good tip, thanks. It makes sense. Already, just by strumming differently it's getting manageable and more pleasing.  I think when those amps are blasting you in the face in real life, it would intuively makes sense to strum differently? That's no fault of the Helix or other high-end modellers but there is some intuitive stuff that come from the loud volume that you have to carry over even when you play at low volume.

[pisznaberdyczow]

Hey, it's my first post here and sorry for replying to old post. I listened to your sample and have exactly same problem and all standard presets sounds same awful as in your sample. I just can't get Helix Native to sound right with Scarlett Solo. Other plugins works (for i.e. Neural DSP). Did you fix your sound?

[rd2rk]

34 minutes ago, pisznaberdyczow said:

Hey, it's my first post here and sorry for replying to old post. I listened to your sample and have exactly same problem and all standard presets sounds same awful as in your sample. I just can't get Helix Native to sound right with Scarlett Solo. Other plugins works (for i.e. Neural DSP). Did you fix your sound?

 

If you're using a gen 1 Scarlett, there was a headroom problem that was resolved in gen 2.

I'm not sure how the channel gain works on those (I have an 18i20), but if it's like mine, 0 (all the way left/counter-clockwise) is 0db/UNITY. Try the lowest setting.

You can also try lowering the Volume knob on your guitar. If you're using active pickups you might just be too hot (if gen1) for the Scarlett's preamp.

[pisznaberdyczow]

Thank you. I have 2nd gen of Solo. I tried lot of advises already and just couple of minutes ago I read about switching off Direct Monitoring in Scarlett. That actually helped a bit to get sound of Native bit louder which was also part of my problem. There are some presets sounding awesome (attached), nevertheless all factory presets and most of custom tones just sound similar to sample posted by OP. Helix is not clipping, staying in green range, but still it's not what I would expect for that price. Maybe Scarlett is an issue, so after holidays will try with Presonus.

GILMOUR SOUND.hlx