Catalyst with Stomp XL...my cake that I can eat?

[adagosto]

Alright others in this forum have helped me nail down a few details about the Catalyst amp and Stomp integration, but here are a few questions/use cases I'd like to understand better.

 

1. Can the Catalyst/Stomp system be configured to output the sound to the internal speaker AND to studio monitors at the same time? What I'd like to do is have that amp-in-the-room vibe along with the stereo effect. Can this be done? If so can you explain at a high level?

 

2. Is a traditional 4CM the preferred way to integrate the two units? To capture the full benefits of the Stomp and signal chain management, is the 4CM the way to get that done or is there a more streamlined way?

 

3. To save on DSP is it possible to use the Catalyst to generate the amp tone (selected amp model), but also use the Stomp to enable a different amp model and switch back and forth? That is, can I set up a patch where I use the Catalyst "Chime" amp tone, then hit a switch that turns the Chime off and the Stomp Cartographer amp model on? In this case the Stomp would only be used for one amp, yet two amps would be available.

 

Huge thanks to you guys who can help me with this!

[rd2rk]

1 - Connect the XLR Out to a Mixer or a single speaker that chains to a second speaker. It will always be MONO because

2 - The Catalyst is a MONO amp. The FX are MONO.

3 - In 4cm (the most FLEXIBLE method) you put the HXS Amp in the signal chain alongside a Send/Return Block.

Assign a FS (or create Snapshots) and SAVE one ON and the other OFF.

Example - S/R Block ON, HXS Amp OFF.

Now when you hit the FS (or change the Snapshot if so configured) the Catalyst Amps are engaged when the S/R Block is ON and the HXS Amp is OFF and vice versa.

 

You are now entering the area where you are soon going to be wishing you'd bought a Floor/LT instead of the HXS.

[adagosto]

On 8/28/2022 at 10:48 AM, rd2rk said:

You are now entering the area where you are soon going to be wishing you'd bought a Floor/LT instead of the HXS.

 

HAHA!! You are always one step ahead of me!!!

 

That is exactly what I'm going through right now! I'm trying to figure out which way I want to go that enhances what I have and where I want to take it. By all means I am fully considering the Helix Floor as an option and selling the HX Stomp XL. If I go that direction, it seems to me that I would not use my amp (Vox or Mesa) in the 4CM and just run the sound out to my studio monitors. I guess I can do both.... regardless, the Floor is a possibility.

 

Alternately, I can go with a Catalyst/Stomp XL option. To further complicate things it seems like all of my options to keep the Stomp have me also adding the TC Electronic Plethora X3 to the mix. I'm currently building dual amp presets that use up all the DSP and I'm offloading the time based effects to my M9. I'd rather get a Plethora X3 and use the Stomp to controll the X3 via MIDI. Side note, it's crazy that the M9 is STILL relevant in 2022 via MIDI in 2022!

 

Anyway, I kinda like the Helix Floor or Stomp XL+Plethora option over the Catalyst just because it's less space on my floor and wall. Plus my wife notices new amps, she doesn't notice new pedals, although she'd pick up on a new Floor for sure!!

[adagosto]

Ok question for you Catalyst and HX Stomp users....

 

I'm thinking I want to give the Catalyst 100 a try and integrate it with my HX Stomp XL. I'm currently 4CM connected to a Vox AC30 but more often I'm not using the amp, but instead outputting the sound to studio monitors via the headphones output.

 

Is the best sounding setup to use the 4CM with the Catalyst? I'm not sure it matters, but I also have external pedals in the Stomp effects loop as well as overdrive pedals in front of the Stomp.

 

Is everything managed the exact same way with the FX Loop L block and FX Loop R block using the AC30 vs Catalyst? 

 

Any other tips or tricks you might add to this thread?

 

Thx!

[rd2rk]

4cm is 4cm. Whatever works with the AC30 will still work with the Catalyst.

 

The Catalyst has a MONO speaker emulated XLR Out - 112/212/412 with multiple mic choices - and it sounds GOOD!

No more need to leave those tubes cooking, no more need to use the HP Out or burn a Block on a cab/IR.

Use the Cat's speaker or turn the speaker switch OFF to use just the Monitors. Or leave it on to use both.

The XLR is not affected by the Cat's Master, it's Unity, so whatever level you feed the Cat from the HXS, that's what you get.

You also save another 2 Blocks on your HXS because you can use the delay and reverb on the Cat, six choices for each.

Or combine them with delays/reverbs on the HXS for cool uber ambient noises.

 

I route the Cat's XLR to my 18i20. I can Direct Monitor through the Monitors and since the 18i20 routes to my DAW via USB I can record the exact signal I'm hearing and the DAW plays it back through the Monitors. If you've got decent Monitors, the XLR signal is VERY close to what you get from the Cat's speaker.

IOW - the XLR's speaker emulation enhances the sound for recording or playing through FRFR but doesn't really color it all that much.

You don't need an 18i20 to do all that, just a decent AI. Connect your HP to the AI and do it all in complete silence.

 

If you're lucky enough to live where you can crank up your AC30 to it's sweet spot, be advised, the Cat is NOT an AC30 substitute.

OTOH, if like me you live in an apartment or have neighbors within a half mile, the Cat is a pretty cool amp.

[adagosto]

Thank you as always...

 

I'm not looking to replace my Vox but I am looking to have that Vox sound without the Vox volume. Also, I just sold my Mesa Boogie so in order to get that Boogie vibe, I'd need a Catalyst or something similar. These Boogie tones don't need to be perfect, just really good and I'll be happy enough with that.

 

I love the idea of the XLR out to my monitors. I assume I'll need a splitter of sorts to get a 1/4" male into the back of each monitor. That's another story...

 

Ok cool I think the Catalyst 100 makes the most sense with Stomp integration as compared to the other options out there. I like the sound of the Cat, so why keep looking....

 

Thanks for the tips.

[rd2rk]

The HXS amps into the Catalyst RETURN will get you closest to the Boogie and Vox sounds, keeping in mind that an open-back 112 will never be a closed back 412.

TBH though, the more I use the Catalyst amps the less I use the Helix amps. More and more my Helix just provides effects. Of course, YMMV.

 

If you get an XLR Splitter, get a good one. Something with specs like this, and pair it with equivalent quality XLR cables:

 

Roland RCC-YC-XF2XM Y Cable - XLR Female to Dual XLR Male - 6-inch | Sweetwater

 

It's after midnight here in Colorado, and I just put down my guitar after playing for an hour at 50-60db (.5 watt, Master at 10 o'clock) and being as satisfied with the sound through the Catalyst as one can be without the pants-flapping effect of 100db. And no police. ;-)

 

The "Dynamic" (aka KINETIC) amp is really nice! Roll off the guitar volume for clean to crunch, hit the BOOST for a little more and add a Minotaur, Teemah or Scream for singing solos - at 60db! YES!

[adagosto]

What I'm not 100% clear in is...

When you use a Helix amp model with the Catalyst, how does the amp know not to use the internal Cat amp as well? Kinda the same thing for an 4CM into a tube amp.

 

Is it that if you place the Helix amp model BEFORE the HX Loop L block, it will replace the Catalyst preamp selected model and bypass the selected Cat selected amp? And if the Helix amp model is placed AFTER the HX Loop L block, the Helix amp model will be combined with the Catalyst selected amp?

 

is that correct?

[rd2rk]

It doesn't matter if the Helix amp is before or after the FX Loop. Remember this from my previous post?

 

"3 - In 4cm (the most FLEXIBLE method) you put the HXS Amp in the signal chain alongside a Send/Return Block.

Assign a FS (or create Snapshots) and SAVE one ON and the other OFF.

Example - S/R Block ON, HXS Amp OFF.

Now when you hit the FS (or change the Snapshot if so configured) the Catalyst Amps are engaged when the S/R Block is ON and the HXS Amp is OFF and vice versa."

 

When you disable the FX Loop Block(s) that takes the Cat's preamp out of the signal chain, and the signal passes through the now activated Helix amp straight to the Helix Out and into the Cat's Power Amp Return.

[adagosto]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:33 AM, rd2rk said:

"3 - In 4cm (the most FLEXIBLE method) you put the HXS Amp in the signal chain alongside a Send/Return Block.

Assign a FS (or create Snapshots) and SAVE one ON and the other OFF.

Example - S/R Block ON, HXS Amp OFF.

Now when you hit the FS (or change the Snapshot if so configured) the Catalyst Amps are engaged when the S/R Block is ON and the HXS Amp is OFF and vice versa."

I'm a bit confused by this. "HXS Amp in the signal chain alongside a Send/Return Block".... I assume you are saying for instants, the first block might be a Helix amp model and the second block would be a S/R block. Is that correct. Assuming so, what is the S/R block doing when ON?

 

Maybe I need to back up. I have my HXS set up using the 4CM and the the SEND is split using a Tip/Ring splitter. So the left side goes to the front on my Vox amplifier and the right side creates an external pedal effects loops and returns on the Return R.

 

With that possible caviot out of the way, what is the S/R Block actually doing?

 

 

[rd2rk]

The S/R block used for 4cm takes the physical amp's preamp OUT of the signal chain when BYPASSED and routes the signal TO the physical amp's preamp when engaged.

 

That's why when the S/R Block is ENGAGED the Helix amp should be BYPASSED and vice versa.

Since when the S/R Block is BYPASSED the signal BYPASSES the FX Loop and PHYSICAL amp's preamp it doesn't matter which side of the S/R Block the Helix amp is on as long as there's nothing else between the two.

 

NOTE - if you're using separate S/R blocks, be sure to set the DRY THRU on the SEND block to -120db to avoid bleed thru.

 

Since you're obviously not confused enough already :-) - 

 

In THEORY, you SHOULD be able to use a Helix PREAMP vs a FULL AMP (sans cab), as it replaces the PHYSICAL amp's preamp.

 

Two things.

 

ITRW the PHYSICAL AMP's PREAMP interacts with the TUBE Poweramp which in turn interacts with the PHYSICAL speaker in what's called an IMPEDANCE CURVE.

This DOES NOT apply when using a SS poweramp such as the Cat.

NOTE - that is a VERY simplified explanation.

 

In the modeling world there is no PHYSICAL interaction even with a TUBE poweramp.

The IMPEDANCE CURVE is modeled into the FULL AMP model in relation to the matched speaker used in the AMP+CAB model.

IMO Helix PREAMPS neither SOUND nor FEEL right when using the Cat's Power amp (or any other SS poweramp).

You use the FULL AMP model vs the PREAMP or AMP+CAB model for this reason (any impedance curve is better than none) and because the CAB will further color the sound of the Catalyst's speaker (try it, you MIGHT like it!).

In the modeling world a CAB (or IR) is simply another type of EQ.

 

Keep in mind that in the virtual world of modeling, as ITRW, if it SOUNDS good, it IS good (Duke Ellington).

 

Experimentation is FUN and the most important thing is to get the signal flow and Gain Staging right.

Unlike ITRW nothing you do will cause the MAGIC SMOKE to escape from any of the PHYSICAL devices!

[adagosto]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:30 AM, rd2rk said:

Since you're obviously not confused enough already :-) -

Yeah pretty much....

 

What I'm not understanding is the FX Loop L block that you have not talked about. See, if that block is either missing or bypassed, the Vox tone is 100% power amp sound. 

 

So can you suggest a test preset for me to tryout what you are suggesting?

 

Block 1: ?

Block 2: ?

Block 3: ?

 

It seems like you might be suggesting this....

 

Block 1: Mandarin 80 amp model

Block 2: Send L

Block 3: FX Loop L

 

Block 3 needs to be always on and the Block 1 and 2 should alternate

 

Thoughts?

[adagosto]

No.

That can't work....

 

What preset will demonstrate what you have in mind?

[rd2rk]

You are totally misunderstanding. I've been talking about FX Loop L the whole time!

FX SEND L is HALF of FX LOOP L.

FX RETURN L is the other half. An FX Loop Block COMBINES the two into a single Block.

IME, when using a TUBE AMP, using a single FX LOOP Block often results in excessive noise.

That's why I recommend that in the case of a TUBE AMP you use separate SEND and RETURN Blocks like this:

 

Helix Amp>FX Send L>Physical Amp INPUT>Physical Amp SEND> FX Return R.

 

If you are also using PHYSICAL FX in the RIGHT FX Loop you can't do this.

With Catalyst it's not necessary because excess noise from the PHYSICAL AMP's SEND is not an issue.

Your VOX MIGHT have a quiet FX LOOP, I don't know. If you find (as many do) that noise is an issue, separate blocks MIGHT be the cure but, if you find it necessary to use PHYSICAL FX in the RIGHT FX Loop, you're entering into the reasons why Helix has FOUR FX Loops vs TWO on the HX and LT models.

 

Attached is the HXS sample preset 4CM:Preamp Swap.

This demonstrates the method of swapping the Helix amp for the PHYSICAL amp and utilizes a single FX Loop Block.

 

Also attached is HXS sample preset 4CM:Clean Start.

This demonstrates using separate SEND and RETURN Blocks utilizing both SEND L and RETURN R to minimize noise.

Just put a Helix Amp in the empty Block and assign the Helix amp to a FS, SAVED ON, and the S/R Blocks to the SAME FS, SAVED OFF, to duplicate the method used in 4CM:Preamp Swap which uses a single FX Loop Block.

 

Visualize the signal as if it were water.

It flows from the HXS Input, THROUGH the HX Amp (when ACTIVE) PAST the FX Loop Block(s) (when BYPASSED) and through the HX Out to the PHYSICAL AMP's FX RETURN.

 

OR

 

It flows from the HXS Input, PAST the HX Amp (when BYPASSED) Out the HX FX SEND (when ACTIVE) to the PHYSICAL AMP's Input, Out the PHYSICAL AMP's FX SEND to the HX RETURN (when ACTIVE) then through the HXS Out to the PHYSICAL AMP's FX RETURN.

4CM_Clean Start.hlx 4CM_Preamp Swap.hlx

[adagosto]

Ok for sure....the S/R block does absolutely nothing.

 

So my setup must be different that what you have. I'm thinking it has to do with my split SEND (top/ring).

 

With a totally blank preset the ONLY block that has any effect on anything is the FX Loop L.

 

That being said, I do like your bypass idea connected to the added amp model on the same foot switche. Some amp models sound better directly into the power section, while others sound better into the Vox preamp before or after the FX block. Like you said, if it sounds good, it is good.

 

But those Send blocks have to impact on anything for me....

[rd2rk]

At this point you need to check all of your cables. The method I described is so common that L6 included sample presets for demonstation purposes, and on the Helix they have templates. 

 

Just out of curiosity in Global Settings>Ins/Outs, is RETURN TYPE set to RETURN (correct) or AUX IN?

[adagosto]

Na, we're good. You were talking about the FX Loop L all the time and every makes sense. Funny, you mentioned I should check my cables..... you're the guy who drew out my wire diagram! Haha. 

 

So yes, it's good.

 

What has surprised me the most is there are no set rules or the "only way" to do things. You have shown me that you really do need to play around with the difference blocks and where you place other block that interact with the tone. Pretty cool.

 

Back to the Catalyst integration with the Stomp....

 

I am thinking the best option for me is the Cat100 and run the Stomp XL into that via 4CM. I have spent a bunch of time tweaking my Vox amp models to match the actual Vox AC30 that I hardly use the actual amp anymore. But I think the added benefits of the Cat will make it worth having.

[rd2rk]

When I said to check your cables I meant to test them to make sure they were all working properly - no shorts, etc.

 

So you've got your 4CM working now with the VOX?

[adagosto]

Oh yes. It's all good. Everything works...

 

This conversation inadvertantly has created a new set of tone options.

 

See before this conversation, I would either move my Amp block before or after the FX Loop L block. I find most of the high gain amp models sound better before the L block. Most of the clean Amp blocks can go either side.

 

But now I'm finding still some Amp models sound even better with the FX Loop L block bypassed. It's really interesting. Most of the time a little EQ here and there is all it needs to sound great.

 

So....back to the Catalyst. If I understand this correctly, if you have the Stomp connected in 4CM to the Cat and with a totally blank preset, the amp selector on the Cat amp would do nothing. Is that right? You can spin it around and the tone will be super clean with no "color" to it. Then I'd you activate a FX Loop L block, suddenly the Cat amp selector knob with work.

 

If that's all correct, my guess is that most of the Helix amp models in the Stomp would probably sound better as a general rule with the FX Loop L block bypassed. Is that correct?

 

And if that's correct, then effectively, the Stomp/Catalyst combo will give you a two channel amp where your Helix model is say channel A and your Cat model is channel B. And if that's correct, you can add another Helix amp model and have a 3 channel amp arrangement, right? There's enough DSP in the Stomp to support 2 Amp models and still have a few blocks available.

 

I'm I understand the power of the Stomp/Cat combo??