Where is the PC global EQ?

[eggwheat]

Powercab plus with Helix floor using aes digital lead for connection and control.

 

So you get to a venue, all your presets are too bright or too dark. Where is the global eq? 

 

Helix global eq is not available with digital connection. 
 

Seem fairly ridiculous that you would have to go in and edit every preset…

 

So please tell me this is not the case. Thanks.

[rd2rk]

On 12/29/2022 at 4:23 PM, eggwheat said:

Powercab plus with Helix floor using aes digital lead for connection and control.

 

So you get to a venue, all your presets are too bright or too dark. Where is the global eq? 

 

Helix global eq is not available with digital connection. 
 

Seem fairly ridiculous that you would have to go in and edit every preset…

 

So please tell me this is not the case. Thanks.

 

Agree that it seems silly, but it is what it is. If it's that important to you, use the XLRs.

If they ever get around to fixing Ideascale you can go there and vote for the 15 requests that they add the Global EQ to the Digital Outs.

[rd2rk]

Word is that Ideascale is back up. GO VOTE!

[eggwheat]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:21 AM, rd2rk said:

 

Agree that it seems silly, but it is what it is. If it's that important to you, use the XLRs.

If they ever get around to fixing Ideascale you can go there and vote for the 15 requests that they add the Global EQ to the Digital Outs.

 

That's pretty ridiculous to hear there really is no global EQ using the AES. XLR's offer no Powercab control...I was sold it on the digital AES control that they hype in their sales pitch, one cable for stereo(I have the 212) and control. Always the same, you buy a product and it's not till you use it properly you find these glaring limitations

 

To me the best solution is It should have a basic global EQ built into the powercab. That seems like a no brainer.

[rd2rk]

You can do high and low cuts on the cab, and you can control the level of the HF Driver.

I disagree with the Global EQ on the cab, as its primary intended use is with the Helix which has Global EQ and all the necessary controls to use it, but yes, it's baffling that it isn't available on the L6 Link. The biggest problem in my opinion is that the control functions over the L6 Link cable are not reliable, at least on the PC212+ (what I have). As a result, I'm forced to use MIDI, configuring it in ControlCenter for every preset. So, 2 cables - one for audio (L6 Link) and the other for MIDI, or 3 cables if Global EQ is important to you. MIDI is NBD for me, just an extra step when configuring presets that should be unnecessary if L6 Link worked reliably, but for some folks it's voodoo rocket science.

 

So, why do I keep it? Because it SOUNDS GOOD, and in the stupid belief that it would be supported as well as Helix, I kept it long past the return period, waiting for the updates that would fix the problems. The updates that, after one update the first year, never came and never will, as the product line is apparently abandonware.

 

THAT sucks!

[eggwheat]

On 12/30/2022 at 5:55 PM, rd2rk said:

You can do high and low cuts on the cab, and you can control the level of the HF Driver.

 

Hi, yeh the cab has Hi frequency level trim. Which you can cut or boost...but it doesn't work in Speaker mode! Only works in the Flat and IR modes.  If you use Flat and IR mode, you lose the mic emulation on the PC outputs! You cant win. Everything is a mish mash and a compromise.  Thats why I said some simple built in global EQ that works on every mode..just like a normal amp. 

 

I agree with you the thing sounds very good...but it has some obvious flaws and they need fixing. 

[eggwheat]

Hi, yeh I'm aware of how the speaker modes work and that it isn't supposed to be on. But it doesn't help me. 

 

Natural speaker mode sounds absolutely nothing like LF raw...I knew this before when I was searching for a solution..but had to go and check again now..nope.. literally nothing like it. It's horrible in comparison in fact!

[rd2rk]

On 12/31/2022 at 2:49 PM, eggwheat said:

Hi, yeh I'm aware of how the speaker modes work and that it isn't supposed to be on. But it doesn't help me. 

 

Natural speaker mode sounds absolutely nothing like LF raw...I knew this before when I was searching for a solution..but had to go and check again now..nope.. literally nothing like it. It's horrible in comparison in fact!

 

Hmm, maybe this is something strange going on in your configuration.

In my PC212+ Natural sounds different, in the way that all the emulations sound different from one another, but not horrible. 

 

Or, we might just have different ears. :-)

[eggwheat]

Horrible to my ears is probably the best description :)....its got a nasty peak in the high midrange compared to LF RAW.

 

One thing: Ive found for me the built in IR's sound the best and so I'm going to go with the Cali V30 IR for now. But do these IR's need the mic emulation used with them for feeding FOH? The powercab XLR outs don't sound particularly great with that IR.

 

I could set up a separate out on the Helix for FOH with the cab/mic model on it...what's the correct way to do it?

[rd2rk]

An IR, by definition, is the sound of a MIC'd cab. The MIC is baked in.

The Helix cabs, old and new, are essentially IRs. The OLD Cabs are basic IRs EQ'd to account for differences in applied MICs.

The NEW Cabs are straight IRs. Each change in MIC is a different IR of the same cab.

 

The only time the Powercab's MIC emulations have any effect is when used with the Powercab's speaker emulations, and they are ONLY applied at the XLR Outs.

 

When using an IR/Cab in the Helix signal chain the Powercab should be set to FLAT STEREO or one of the LF settings - LF Flat (LF Driver EQ'd to be FLAT) or LF RAW (NO EQ on the LF Driver).

 

When using FLAT STEREO (FRFR) or USER IR you can take out a bit of "fizz" by either lowering the LF TRIM setting (lowers the volume of the HF Driver) or by using the HF parameter in Powercab the same way you'd use it on an IR/Cab Block loaded on Helix.

 

EDIT: HF Trim is a SYSTEM setting. If you change it, it affects the way the speaker emulations sound, as their sound is a result of changes applied to the Coaxial (HF) drivers.

 

Unless you're using Speaker Emulations or USER IRs, the signal at the Powercab XLR Outs should be the same as the signal at the Helix Outs.

If you're using the Powercab SYSTEM DEFAULTS, whatever processing the Powercab is applying to the signal is applied at the XLR Outs.

You might want to check that setting.

 

It's possible to use the Speaker Emulations or USER IRs on the Powercab while using Helix IRs/Cabs for FOH.

You place the Helix IR/Cab Block at the end of the signal chain, pull it down to split the path, pull down the MIX Block to complete the split, then set the Main Path to whichever Outputs you're using for the Powercab (digital or 1/4") and the Output on the split path with the Helix IR/Cab block is set to XLR for FOH.

In this configuration the Powercab's XLR Outs are NOT used.

In either configuration you should use the Volume knob on the Powercab for your stage volume while leaving the BIG KNOB on the Helix either MAXED or DISABLED (same effect - Unity Out).

The Volume Knob on the Powercab does NOT affect the Powercab XLR Out level when using the Powercab XLR Outs.

 

For clarity I'll repeat what I said above - the L6 Link Control function is inconsistent.

In the Powercab Tab of HX Edit, set REMOTE to OFF (the setting is Global to all presets) to prevent L6 link from screwing with your results.

Use MIDI and CommandCenter to make changes on the Powercab.

 

Sorry if the above repeats stuff you already know and I hope my explanations are clear.

It is, after all New Year's Day and I didn't get much sleep last night.

 

Happy New Year!

 

[eggwheat]

Thanks very much for taking the time to answer my questions. It has helped me a lot. Happy new year to you too!

[amsdenj]

What I found consistently happens is when using Helix with Powercab 212 through Line6 Link: changing Mode and Voicing with HX Edit only controls the left speaker of Powercab 212, not both left and right speakers. Changing Mode and Voicing with Helix is only controlling the Right speaker, not both left and right speakers (whether HX Edit is connected or not).

 

Workaround is to use MIDI to control Powercab 212 which you have to do with modelers other than Helix anyway. 

 

I can't try it, but something similar might or might not occur using Helix and Line6 Link with two Powercab 122+ units. Depends on whether the bug is in the Line6 Link processing in Helix or is unique to Powercab 212.  Can anyone verify?

 

[amsdenj]

On 12/30/2022 at 11:52 PM, rd2rk said:

In LF RAW mode the MIC emulation on the XLR is a baked in 57 on an emulation of the RAW Eminence LF Driver.

I can't find that in the Powercab manual. I can only find: "The output signal will have an SM57 microphone model applied when using speaker models." in reference to Powercab 112. For Powercab 112+ and 212, the user selected mic model is used.  I thought Mode:Flat sent the input directly to the XLR out with no processing for all voicings (FRFR, LF Flat and LF RAW). Can you provide a source or verify?

 

I had suspected the purpose of the Natural speaker model was to provide a means of adding a mic model to the Eminence speaker at the XLR out, and the difference between Mode:Flat, Voicing LF Raw, and Mode: Speaker, Natural was the EQ applied by LF Flat normalization was essentially removed. So the difference between Flat: LR Raw and Speaker:Natural is the additional processing through the EQ. And I suspect this EQ is done with delta IRs. But this is all speculation.

 

 

[rd2rk]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:33 AM, amsdenj said:

I can't find that in the Powercab manual. I can only find: "The output signal will have an SM57 microphone model applied when using speaker models." in reference to Powercab 112. For Powercab 112+ and 212, the user selected mic model is used.  I thought Mode:Flat sent the input directly to the XLR out with no processing for all voicings (FRFR, LF Flat and LF RAW). Can you provide a source or verify?

 

I had suspected the purpose of the Natural speaker model was to provide a means of adding a mic model to the Eminence speaker at the XLR out, and the difference between Mode:Flat, Voicing LF Raw, and Mode: Speaker, Natural was the EQ applied by LF Flat normalization was essentially removed. So the difference between Flat: LR Raw and Speaker:Natural is the additional processing through the EQ. And I suspect this EQ is done with delta IRs. But this is all speculation.

 

 

 

AFAIK, FLAT (FLAT STEREO on the 212) does exactly that:

 

FLAT MODE PARAMETERS
Essentially full-range, flat-response, and equivalent to the signal being sent to a front-of-house mixer. This mode is most helpful for simple plug-and-play compatibility, letting your amp modeler do all the work. This mode is ideal for simply plugging in as if you were connecting directly to a PA, active monitor, or recording interface. It provides a flat frequency response, ideal for guitar signals that already include cabinet emulation or for playing back music and backing tracks.

 

You're right about the baked-in 57 being on the plain PC112 only.

As for the MODES, after re-reading the manual I've come to question much of what I've thought I knew.

It seems that, long ago when I FIRST read it, I missed this:

 

SPEAKER MODE PARAMETERS
Intended to respond like a real guitar speaker for a traditional "amp-in-the-room" experience. This mode applies different tonal characteristics of the selected speaker model to the system's coaxial driver, with the following adjustable parameters.

 

IOW - What makes a Speaker Mode sound like the speaker is the EQ applied TO THE COAXIAL (HF) Driver, NOT the LF Driver as I previously thought.

 

I now need to go back and try to find every post where I've said that the HF Driver is OFF in speaker emulations and correct myself.

 

Another thing I've realized after extensively testing it today using the panel controls (vs L6 Link) is that the level differences between the speaker modes were not L6 Link errors, but actually designed in to compensate between the apparent (to our ears) levels of the different speakers caused by their differing EQ curves.

 

I think that I'm going to go back and DELTE every post I've ever made about the Powercab.

 

Then I'll take the time to thoroughly test what's happening with L6 Link.

 

Like most humans, I hate to admit it, but I may have been wrong about much of what I thought I knew.

 

 

 

[amsdenj]

Wait! Re: "This mode applies different tonal characteristics of the selected speaker model to the system's coaxial driver, with the following adjustable parameters." I'm pretty sure the "system's coaxial driver" refers to the whole coaxial speaker, not just the tweeter, which is referred to as the "high frequency compression driver". I'm pretty sure the tweeter is only on in Flat:FRFR or IR modes.

 

In the section describing the speaker models, the manual also says:

"HF OFF / Natural – This is the natural sound and feel of the speaker in the Powercab with the high-frequency compression driver disabled and no EQ of any kind applied". This might leave the impression that the HF might be on for other speaker models, but it is not. I just tested my Powercab 212 in Speaker:Normal and Speaker:Cream. Adjusting the Global HF Trim through its full range makes no difference in the tone. The HF compression driver is definitely off.

 

The same HF Trim sweep in Flat:FRFR makes a huge difference indicating the tweeter is definitely on.

 

There should be no need to use a tweeter to EQ the Eminence speaker to sound like another guitar speaker as the EQ delta should be fairly small. All the speaker model EQs are applied to Flat:LF Flat, and that, like Flat: LF Raw doesn't use the tweeter.

 

A guess, but I think Flat:LF Flat just EQs the Eminence speaker in a "standard" way so that Line6 could adjust Flat:LF Flat EQ to use with different speakers (i.e., in Powercab 212) and reuse all the speaker models, since their EQ is all applied to the same normalized Flat:LF Flat.

 

I also tested and Flat:LF Raw and Speaker:Natural don't sound the same. There is some EQ processing that makes Speaker:Natural sound a bit more scooped and brighter than Flat:LF Raw, and not in a pleasant way. LF Raw sounds better to me. 

 

So I think you've been right all along. And I really appreciate your contribution and insights.