Understanding the mix % on the FX Loop [HX Stomp XL]

[guitarerjon]

I've got my Stomp hooked up via 4CM to my Mesa Boogie DC-3, utilizing the effects loop on the amp. The amp has a mix % and the Stomp's FX Loop block also has a mix %. Before the Stomp, I would have my pedals run into the effects loop, and would have the mix % at 100. When I started playing with the Stomp, everything sounded terrible. It was all distorted, like the signal was too hot. After trying everything, I turned down the mix % on the FX Loop block to 0, while keeping the Boogie's mix at 100. Once I did that, everything sounded perfect. But oddly, the effects were still playing.

 

This makes no sense to me. If the mix % is 0 on the Stomp, doesn't that mean all dry, no effects should come through at all?

 

Do I have something set up wrong with the cables? I followed the directions for 4CM in the manual, so I've got Guitar -> L Mono in; L Mono Out -> Amp Return; Amp Send -> Return L Mono; Send -> Amp In

 

[silverhead]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:40 AM, guitarerjon said:

...

 

Do I have something set up wrong with the cables? I followed the directions for 4CM in the manual, so I've got Guitar -> L Mono in; L Mono Out -> Amp Return; Amp Send -> Return L Mono; Send -> Amp In

 

Your cabling is incorrect. 4CM is:

Guitar -> L Mono in; L Mono Out -> Amp In; Amp Send -> Return L Mono; Send -> Amp Return

 

Also, your understanding of the Send parameters is incorrect. See HX Stomp manual pg 34. The default, and normal, setting for Dry Thru is 0.

[guitarerjon]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:00 AM, silverhead said:

Your cabling is incorrect. 4CM is:

Guitar -> L Mono in; L Mono Out -> Amp In; Amp Send -> Return L Mono; Send -> Amp Return

 

Also, your understanding of the Send parameters is incorrect. See HX Stomp manual pg 34. The default, and normal, setting for Dry Thru is 0.

So the manual is incorrect? (See attached screenshot)

 

Also page 34 in my manual is about cab models. The default setting of the Mix on the FX Loop is 100.

Page 31 says this about "Mix": "Blends the effected “wet” signal vs. the “dry” signal passed through the block. When set to 0%, the path bypasses the effect completely. When set to 100%, the entire path is fed through the effect, and no dry thru signal is heard."

 

[silverhead]

The manual image is correct. It shows the connections I mentioned, with the Stomp Send routed to the Guitar In. Your setup has the Stomp Send routed to the Amp Return, which is incorrect.

 

You mentioned you had the Stomp so I assumed it was the basic Stomp. Seems you have the Stomp XL, so it’s pg 37. Whatever the page, I’m referring to the part of the manual that describes the Send/Return (FX Loop) feature. When the manual refers to ‘the effect’ it is referring to the FX Loop effect block itself, not any preceding FX blocks in the signal chain.

[guitarerjon]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:00 AM, silverhead said:

The manual image is correct. It shows the connections I mentioned, with the Stomp Send routed to the Guitar In. Your setup has the Stomp Send routed to the Amp Return, which is incorrect.

 

? I think we're saying the same thing here. My setup matches the screenshot exactly.  I said "Send -> Amp In" which I guess is confusing, but is meant to be "stomp send to guitar in on the amp."

 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 11:00 AM, silverhead said:

You mentioned you had the Stomp so I assumed it was the basic Stomp. Seems you have the Stomp XL, so it’s pg 37. Whatever the page, I’m referring to the part of the manual that describes the Send/Return (FX Loop) feature. When the manual refers to ‘the effect’ it is referring to the FX Loop effect block itself, not any preceding FX blocks in the signal chain.

 

Yeah I had XL in the subject, but left it out of the description. I guess my question still stands: how is it possible that reducing the mix % on the Stomp's FX Loop is still sending a wet sound through the amp? Like I have chorus in the loop. Turning mix to 0 should remove the chorus completely, but it doesn't. And like I said, having mix % > 0 produces distortion.

[silverhead]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:29 AM, guitarerjon said:

 

? I think we're saying the same thing here. My setup matches the screenshot exactly.  I said "Send -> Amp In" which I guess is confusing, but is meant to be "stomp send to guitar in on the amp."

 

Sorry - yes, you are correct. I thought was describing the signal flow while you are describing the physical left-to-right setup per the diagram. My initial editing of your routing was incorrect. We are both saying (or at least I was trying to say) the same thing.

[silverhead]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:29 AM, guitarerjon said:

 

.... I guess my question still stands: how is it possible that reducing the mix % on the Stomp's FX Loop is still sending a wet sound through the amp? Like I have chorus in the loop. Turning mix to 0 should remove the chorus completely, but it doesn't. And like I said, having mix % > 0 produces distortion.

Have you tried simply turning the FX Loop block off instead of the mix to 0?

 

The normal operation of the 4CM is to create your presets to use either the Stomp's amp modeling or the physical amp, not both. If you want to use a Stomp amp model, turn the FX Loop off which bypasses the physical amp's preamp section. When you want to use the physical  amp's preamp section turn off (or do not include) a Stomp amp model and turn the FX Loop on.

[guitarerjon]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:00 PM, silverhead said:

Have you tried simply turning the FX Loop block off instead of the mix to 0?

Yes. When I do that, I get no effects at all!

On 8/14/2023 at 12:00 PM, silverhead said:

The normal operation of the 4CM is to create your presets to use either the Stomp's amp modeling or the physical amp, not both. If you want to use a Stomp amp model, turn the FX Loop off which bypasses the physical amp's preamp section. When you want to use the physical  amp's preamp section turn off (or do not include) a Stomp amp model and turn the FX Loop on.

What I'm trying to do is have all my effects set up and categorized by whether I want them in the loop or not. I'm not using the amp models right now, so I'd like things like compressor to go straight to the front of the amp, but delay/chorus should go to the effects loop. So I thought by having the FX Loop block in the path, it would do all of that for me. At least, that's what it reads like in the manual.

 

This box is amazing, but it's so capable, it gets very complicated very quickly!

 

 

[silverhead]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:20 PM, guitarerjon said:

….

What I'm trying to do is have all my effects set up and categorized by whether I want them in the loop or not. I'm not using the amp models right now, so I'd like things like compressor to go straight to the front of the amp, but delay/chorus should go to the effects loop. So I thought by having the FX Loop block in the path, it would do all of that for me. At least, that's what it reads like in the manual.

….

Are you using external delay/chorus physical pedals or are you trying to use Stomp FX models ‘in the loop’?

 

The Stomp FX Loop combines the Send and Return functions at a single point in the signal chain. This means that you can’t actually place a Stomp FX model ‘in the loop’ because there’s no internal Stomp signal chain in the FX Loop block. The signal leaves and returns at the same point in the Stomp signal chain. Note that you want the FX Loop block to always be ON; otherwise the signal will not be routed to your amp.
 

The FX Loop block is actually designed for using external pedals, not internal Stomp FX blocks. If you are using those you should place them in the amp’s FX Loop and control them with the amp, not the Stomp. Does your amp provide On/Off control of its FX Loop? If so, you can use that.

 

If not you can use the Stomp’s Snapshots feature to control your Stomp Chorus/Delay models. Place them in the signal chain after the Stomp’s FX Loop block. Create a Snapshot with those pedals ON and another Snapshot with them OFF. Then you can turn them both On/Off on demand using a Stomp Snapshot footswitch, not the FX Loop or it’s settings. No need to worry about Mix or Dry Thru parameters.

 

And you’re right… it can get confusing. I find it always helps to think of the actual signal flow, starting with your guitar. It comes into the Stomp at the Guitar input, leaves and returns at the FX Loop block, and then completes the rest of the Stomp signal chain before it hits the Output block.

[kduck]

Here is how the signal flows in 4CM (your setup):

 

Guitar >> HX L/Mono Input >> (HX pre-send effect blocks) >> HX FX Loop Send >> DC3 Input >> DC3 preamp >> DC3 Channel Master vol >> DC3 FX Loop Send >> HX FX Loop Return >> (HX post-send effect blocks) >> HX L/Mono Output >> DC3 FX Loop Return >> DC3 FX Loop Mix (parallel) >> DC3 Power Amp >> speaker

 

in 4CM, the Stomp FX Loop block is simply your DC3 preamp.  The output of the DC3 preamp is controlled by the Master on each channel.

 

On 8/14/2023 at 8:40 AM, guitarerjon said:

This makes no sense to me. If the mix % is 0 on the Stomp, doesn't that mean all dry, no effects should come through at all?

 

With the Stomp mix at 0 this means that your signal is bypassing the DC3 preamp, so your signal chain is effectively:  Guitar >> HX L/Mono Input >> (HX pre-send effect blocks) >>  (HX post-send effect blocks) >> HX L/Mono Output >> DC3 FX Loop Return >> DC3 Power Amp >> speaker. 

 

I would guess that the output from the DC3 preamp is overdriving the Stomp FX Loop Return.  I would suggest starting with the following (assuming DC3 mix at 100% and Stomp Mix at 100%):

1. Turn down the DC3 channel volume until there is no unwanted distortion

2. Turn down the stomp FX Loop return level