Helix and Ableton (Daw) issue with Snapshot midi clips and CC69 message

[jokair]

Hello,

 

I use Ableton 11 with my Helix Floor (firmware 3.6), for 2 things:
1. Automatically change Helix snapshots to arrangement view
2. Control Ableton with the Helix footswitches.

 

For 1, in Ableton, I created a midi track and clips with the CC69 command.

For 2, in the Helix, I used Command Control and assigned midi notes in all snapshots so that I could control several Ableton buttons (ex: Play, Stop, Next locator, Previous Locator)

 

Here is the problem.

When I start playback with the Snapshots track activated, midi commands start on their own. In particular, the Next locator and Previous locator...

 

I'm adding a link to a video I just made to visualize the problem in Ableton : 

 

 

I want to point out that I did not use the Instants Commands.

 

Does anyone have an idea to solve my problem ?

 

Thank you in advance for your contributions.

[rd2rk]

NOTEs are "toggling" type messages - NoteON/NoteOFF. When assigned to a FS, "toggling" messages are sent on Snapshot load/change.

Instead of NOTEs, use a simple (non-toggling) CC with a Value of 0 (zero).

 

I rarely use Ableton (prefer Reaper), and I've NEVER used Locators, so it took a bit of experimenting to figure out what was happening and how to fix it.

Thank you for an interesting problem. I learned something new today about using Ableton!

[DunedinDragon]

For several years I've been using Ableton to play back tracks and synchronize automated control over my presets/snapshots/footswitches with the playback of those tracks.  I initially used the Helix as the MIDI controller but abandoned it pretty early on due to anomalies such as those you mentioned with the Helix's implementation of MIDI and started using a Morningstar MC8 as the central MIDI controller in my rig.  I think the Helix can do simple MIDI integration, but it comes with so many oddball limitations it becomes a handicap for anything too sophisticated.

 

The anomaly you discovered was one I ran into as well, but was easily overcome with my MC8 by just sending an alphanumeric letter rather than a note which Ableton easily responds to.  The biggest limitation was the Helix's inability to send multiple commands from a single footswitch press for more complex interactions which is easily implemented on my MC8.  In my implementation the MC8 completely replaces the footswitches on the Helix so that everything (Ableton and Helix) is controlled from a single source controller.  This was crucial in my case because I'm synchronizing control over several devices (Helix, lighting, tablet lyric display, etc.) with the playback of the track

 

The bottom line for me is that the Helix can send and respond to MIDI, but it's a very long ways away from being a legitimate MIDI controller.

[rd2rk]

Helix works really well as a MIDI controller for amp sims, and for controlling basic DAW functions in real time.

For complex automated "show control" functions, not so much.

[jokair]

On 9/1/2023 at 6:32 AM, rd2rk said:

NOTEs are "toggling" type messages - NoteON/NoteOFF. When assigned to a FS, "toggling" messages are sent on Snapshot load/change.

Instead of NOTEs, use a simple (non-toggling) CC with a Value of 0 (zero).

 

I rarely use Ableton (prefer Reaper), and I've NEVER used Locators, so it took a bit of experimenting to figure out what was happening and how to fix it.

Thank you for an interesting problem. I learned something new today about using Ableton!

 

I didn't know it. Thanks a lot.

Otherwise, I Tried to convert NOTES by CC messages and... it does not work at all ! Weird.

Any idea ?

 

On 9/1/2023 at 10:25 AM, DunedinDragon said:

For several years I've been using Ableton to play back tracks and synchronize automated control over my presets/snapshots/footswitches with the playback of those tracks.  I initially used the Helix as the MIDI controller but abandoned it pretty early on due to anomalies such as those you mentioned with the Helix's implementation of MIDI and started using a Morningstar MC8 as the central MIDI controller in my rig.  I think the Helix can do simple MIDI integration, but it comes with so many oddball limitations it becomes a handicap for anything too sophisticated.

 

The anomaly you discovered was one I ran into as well, but was easily overcome with my MC8 by just sending an alphanumeric letter rather than a note which Ableton easily responds to.  The biggest limitation was the Helix's inability to send multiple commands from a single footswitch press for more complex interactions which is easily implemented on my MC8.  In my implementation the MC8 completely replaces the footswitches on the Helix so that everything (Ableton and Helix) is controlled from a single source controller.  This was crucial in my case because I'm synchronizing control over several devices (Helix, lighting, tablet lyric display, etc.) with the playback of the track

 

The bottom line for me is that the Helix can send and respond to MIDI, but it's a very long ways away from being a legitimate MIDI controller.

 

I would really prefer to use the Helix. But I see that you have studied the question well...
Line6 didn't try to improve all this with the new firmware? How can we suggest them?

 

 

 

 

[jokair]

On 9/1/2023 at 5:37 PM, rd2rk said:

Helix works really well as a MIDI controller for amp sims, and for controlling basic DAW functions in real time.

For complex automated "show control" functions, not so much.

 

Yes. And it would be good to know when it becomes "complex" !

[rd2rk]

On 9/3/2023 at 1:35 AM, jokair said:

I Tried to convert NOTES by CC messages and... it does not work at all

 

IDK what you did wrong. What do you mean by "convert", and what exactly does "it does not work at all" mean? You need to be more specific.

What EXACTLY are you doing?

 

After proving the problem using NOTEs, I just changed the message being sent by Helix from NOTE to simple (non-toggling) CC, then went back into the Ableton project and repeated the MIDI assignment process using the CCs sent from Helix. EZ PZ!

Recall I said to use non-toggling CCs with a Value of zero. IOW, CC#111 Value 0; CC#112 Value 0 etc. The CC# is NOT the VALUE!

[rd2rk]

On 9/3/2023 at 1:36 AM, jokair said:

 

Yes. And it would be good to know when it becomes "complex" !

 

Everybody's needs are different. A 10,000 page manual attempting to address every possible scenario would be impossible, and no one would read it - they don't read the existing short manual, never mind the manuals for the sw/hw they're trying to control! It would also be useless unless the reader knew the basics of MIDI, which is not L6's responsibility to teach beyond how it is implemented on Helix. Admittedly, the Helix manual could be a LITTLE more detailed in that regard, but remember, Helix is first and foremost a guitar amp and FX modeler. MIDI is an added attraction. And after all (literally) they DO provide this forum, where users can get FREE help from L6's un-paid front-line support team - your fellow users ;-P !

[DunedinDragon]

On 9/3/2023 at 3:35 AM, jokair said:

 

I would really prefer to use the Helix. But I see that you have studied the question well...
Line6 didn't try to improve all this with the new firmware? How can we suggest them?

 

Ideascale is what is used by Line 6 for considering new features.  It's not a certainty that entering an idea there will result in new features.  It first must generate a fairly good showing from other users voting for it.  Even then it may not result in a new feature if it's not considered to be in the domain of Helix's product scope and definition.  As @rd2rk mentioned MIDI is really an added attraction.  It's probably sufficient enough to address MOST user's needs, but Helix is not designed to compete with full, dedicated MIDI controllers.  There are plenty of those on the market and I doubt that Line 6 has much interest in capturing market share in that space, but you could try if you want.

[jokair]

On 9/3/2023 at 5:38 PM, rd2rk said:

 

IDK what you did wrong. What do you mean by "convert", and what exactly does "it does not work at all" mean? You need to be more specific.

What EXACTLY are you doing?

 

After proving the problem using NOTEs, I just changed the message being sent by Helix from NOTE to simple (non-toggling) CC, then went back into the Ableton project and repeated the MIDI assignment process using the CCs sent from Helix. EZ PZ!

Recall I said to use non-toggling CCs with a Value of zero. IOW, CC#111 Value 0; CC#112 Value 0 etc. The CC# is NOT the VALUE!

Hello,

 

More details : 

1. In the Helix, I changed midi message from Notes to Midi CC (with 0 value as adviced) on each FS of each snapshot.

2. In Ableton, I changed Midi mapping like this, using helix Footswitchs ("repère" = "Locator" in french): 

3. Once validated, when I press any Footswitch, no action is triggered. The orange midi message monitor at the top right informs me that a signal is received when I activate an FS.

 

Any idea ?

[rd2rk]

Is Helix (or the FS MIDI) set to send on Channel 16?

Also, CC#s 1 & 2 are "Reserved" for Modulation Wheel and Breath Controller functions. This might not matter, but since Ableton is a very MIDI and Synth focused DAW, those CCs might not be available for UI control functions. There's LOTS of reserved CCs, and you should pick numbers that are NOT reserved. Here's a list:

 

MIDI CC List (Quick Guide) – Professional Composers

 

Speaking of CONTROL functions, here's a screenshot of the configurations I used in the project I created to work your problem. I'm not sure that everything in the preferences screen is necessary, as I said, I rarely use Ableton, but it works, so...

 

EDIT: MIO is the MIDI Interface to my FCB1010/UNO2, another MIDI controller I sometimes use. Disregard for your purposes.

 

[jokair]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:41 PM, rd2rk said:

Is Helix (or the FS MIDI) set to send on Channel 16?

Also, CC#s 1 & 2 are "Reserved" for Modulation Wheel and Breath Controller functions. This might not matter, but since Ableton is a very MIDI and Synth focused DAW, those CCs might not be available for UI control functions. There's LOTS of reserved CCs, and you should pick numbers that are NOT reserved. Here's a list:

 

MIDI CC List (Quick Guide) – Professional Composers

 

Speaking of CONTROL functions, here's a screenshot of the configurations I used in the project I created to work your problem. I'm not sure that everything in the preferences screen is necessary, as I said, I rarely use Ableton, but it works, so...

 

EDIT: MIO is the MIDI Interface to my FCB1010/UNO2, another MIDI controller I sometimes use. Disregard for your purposes.

 

I didn't know for the "reserved" CC's. Thank you very much. I'm gonna try this ! Thank you too for the example.

[jokair]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:59 PM, jokair said:

I didn't know for the "reserved" CC's. Thank you very much. I'm gonna try this ! Thank you too for the example.

I tried this, with CC102 to CC109 and 0 value, on the 8 FS of the Helix. 

I mappped again midi in Ableton. 

And it's does not work. 

Do you reproduced the problem rd2rk ? 

 

[rd2rk]

You attached a .php file, so I don't know what you're asking.

If that was a screenshot, make sure it's in a PC format.

 

[jokair]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:27 PM, rd2rk said:

You attached a .php file, so I don't know what you're asking.

If that was a screenshot, make sure it's in a PC format.

 

 

Sorry. Here is the photo

[rd2rk]

OK, that doesn't tell me anything. Make a screenshot of your Ableton configuration with the same components as the screenshot I made, most importantly the MIDI assignments and Preferences.

[jokair]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:15 PM, rd2rk said:

OK, that doesn't tell me anything. Make a screenshot of your Ableton configuration with the same components as the screenshot I made, most importantly the MIDI assignments and Preferences.

Sorry.

 

Here are the screenshots of midi parameters and midi mapping below.

I use a Focusrite audio interface as a midi hub. The helix is connected to the Focusrite with 2 midi cables.

 

And I add pictures of Helix midi parameters too.

Note that the Snapshots clips send a CC69 on channel 5 to change snapshots.

And I tried with Snapshot CC Send in On mode in the Helix, and this is still the same problem : no control.

 

> Do you see a wrong parameter or something weird ?

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

My apologies. I've been telling you to use a Value of 0. Try 127.

 

Apparently, during my first test I recorded Snapshot changes. While my SS1 CC Values were set to 0, when the recording changed to SS2 they were set to 127 so without noticing the SS change I was using 127 the whole time! DOH! What a dummy!

 

Anyhow, I re-did the test on my studio system with Helix connected thru my Focusrite and using 127 as a Value all is well. That SHOULD work for you.

 

Snapshots aren't sending because you have "Snapshot CC Send" set to OFF.

 

Sorry for the mix-up. 

 

 

[jokair]

On 9/11/2023 at 6:31 PM, rd2rk said:

My apologies. I've been telling you to use a Value of 0. Try 127.

 

Apparently, during my first test I recorded Snapshot changes. While my SS1 CC Values were set to 0, when the recording changed to SS2 they were set to 127 so without noticing the SS change I was using 127 the whole time! DOH! What a dummy!

 

Anyhow, I re-did the test on my studio system with Helix connected thru my Focusrite and using 127 as a Value all is well. That SHOULD work for you.

 

Snapshots aren't sending because you have "Snapshot CC Send" set to OFF.

 

Sorry for the mix-up. 

 

 

 

Yeah, seems better ! Really better. It was it : a 127 value. Thanks you very much rd2rk !

 

Well, I have a last problem with Previous Locator and Next Locator when I use the FS affected and the track Snapshot (with CC69 on clips)

 

The problem : when I press the FS (FS4 or FS10, see parameters below), it jumps a locator. It goes to the "next next", and not the "next" locator.

It seems, it goes to the next when I press, the again to the next when I release FS...

> Do you have an idea for this ?

 

The problem doesn't appear when the track Snapshot is muted. that is to say, when Ableton doesn't control Helix snapshots with CC69 midi message.

 

My parameters : 

• Helix : 
  • FS4 : called Previous : : Command Midi CC > Midi CH : 16 > CC# : 104 > Value : 127
  • FS10 : called Next : Command Midi CC > Midi CH : 16 > CC# : 105 > Value : 127
• Ableton midi mapping
  • Ch 16 > Note/command : CC104 > Path : Locators > Name : Previous locator
  • Ch 16 > Note/command : CC105 > Path : Locators > Name : Next locator

 

[rd2rk]

I'm afraid that one doesn't have a cure. It's actually the behavior that led me to the solution of the other problem.

It drove me a little nuts because depending upon where exactly you hit the locator switch in relation to where the next snapshot change is it seems to behave differently. 

I'm not sure if it's possible in Ableton to see exactly where the recorded MIDI is located on the track timeline (it should be, you can in Reaper), you'd have to RTM to find out, but that might allow you to better time your locator selections or place your locators.

[jokair]

Hey,

I've just found a trick.

 

I disable the Snapshot clip (with CC69 message) on first beat (or few milliseconds) of the locators. So there's not this kind of "double midi message" when I use the Helix FS midi controllers.

Works fine for me. Yeah !!!