HX Effects + Bluguitar Amp1 + Victory V4 preamp issues

[Tomschelfaut]

Hey guys, I'm having issues with my current setup:

 

I use the 4CM to connect all three devices:

 

Guitar goes into HX input

HX send goes to input of the Victory pedal

Victory pedal send goes to input of the Bluguitar

Send of the Blueguitar goes to the return of the Victory

Victory return goes to the HX

HX out goes to the return of the Bluguitar

 

This gives me the possibility to use the clean channel of the bluguitar, the dirt channel of the victory, with HX FX both in front of and after the preamps.

 

It seems to work, but I started fiddeling around with the line/instrument settings in the global menu and now I get a signal that is either way too hot, or either way too low.

 

The Bluguitar also has a switch to choose between +4db or -10db for the FX loop. I have no idea what this means... The +4db drastically lowers the output volume in my setup, the other one makes it louder.

 

At certain settings the fx after the preamp, like delay, are way more present than they're supposed to be...

 

Now I've set the output of the HX to line and the FX loop as well (I read that this could help). Trails are also switched off on the FX loop in the HX.

 

I've also noticed that the preamps in the Bluguitar are much louder than the victory preamp. Maybe it's just like this or maybe it's because I did something wrong. The volume on the victory is maxed out.

 

Please help me fix this setup so I can get the best possible sound out of it. I read all over the net, but there's so much conflicting advice and I'm kind of a noob when it comes to levels, gain staging, dbs, etc...

 

Thanks in advance!

[rd2rk]

A "pre-amp" usually expects an instrument to be connected to its input.

Set both FX Loops to INST.

Unless you want the amps in series (using both at once?), use separate FX Loops for each, then set a FS (or Snapshot) to toggle the Loops.

Use the switch on the BG to get as close to the Victory as possible. +4 (IIRC) is what you'd use for Stompbox (INST) level signals, -10 for LINE.

The AMP1 RETURN is LINE LEVEL (per the manual), so set the HXFX OUTPUT to LINE.

 

 

 

 

[Schmalle]

+4dBu and -10dBV are two signal levels - studio rack vs. fx pedal gear.

 

Amp1's fx loop is unity gain: the return compensates the send level so that the level the power amp gets is the same if you use no loop, -10dBV or +4dBu.

If you use a different preamp however you need to manually compensate for the different return levels by adjusting the preamp's output level.

 

Since Amp1's send level is much lower with the -10dBV setting I'd suggest you use that. I recommend to set ALL levels to Inst in the HX - contradicting @rd2rk's advice which would boost the level in the Amp1's fx loop but you want unity gain (same level as bypassed).

[rd2rk]

On 5/23/2024 at 7:49 PM, Schmalle said:

I recommend to set ALL levels to Inst in the HX - contradicting @rd2rk's advice which would boost the level in the Amp1's fx loop but you want unity gain (same level as bypassed).

 

So, the HXFX Output should be set to INST and the switch should be -10db?

[Schmalle]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:20 AM, rd2rk said:

So, the HXFX Output should be set to INST and the switch should be -10db?

Yes. The -10dBu setting provides more headroom for the HX to operate. All HX levels to INST provides unity gain. 

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:49 AM, Schmalle said:

+4dBu and -10dBV are two signal levels - studio rack vs. fx pedal gear.

 

Amp1's fx loop is unity gain: the return compensates the send level so that the level the power amp gets is the same if you use no loop, -10dBV or +4dBu.

If you use a different preamp however you need to manually compensate for the different return levels by adjusting the preamp's output level.

 

Since Amp1's send level is much lower with the -10dBV setting I'd suggest you use that. I recommend to set ALL levels to Inst in the HX - contradicting @rd2rk's advice which would boost the level in the Amp1's fx loop but you want unity gain (same level as bypassed).

 

I tried what you said, and everything gets pushed way too hard and the effects after the preamp are loud and washy (delay and reverb)...

[Schmalle]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:30 AM, Tomschelfaut said:

I tried what you said, and everything gets pushed way too hard and the effects after the preamp are loud and washy (delay and reverb)...

 

On 5/24/2024 at 12:28 AM, Tomschelfaut said:

I use the 4CM to connect all three devices:

 

Guitar goes into HX input

HX send goes to input of the Victory pedal

Victory pedal send goes to input of the Bluguitar

Send of the Blueguitar goes to the return of the Victory

Victory return goes to the HX

HX out goes to the return of the Bluguitar

Why do you cascade the preamps? Try this parallel wiring instead:

 

guitar -> HX input

HX send 1 -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> HX return 1

HX out L -> Amp1 return

HX send 2 -> Victory input

Victory output -> HX return 2

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/24/2024 at 12:24 PM, Schmalle said:

 

Why do you cascade the preamps? Try this parallel wiring instead:

 

guitar -> HX input

HX send 1 -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> HX return 1

HX out L -> Amp1 return

HX send 2 -> Victory input

Victory output -> HX return 2

 

I'll try that, but where do i place the FX loop blocks then in the HX? Do I make a parallel path in the editor? and do I put the bluguitar FX loop on parallel as well then? (has a switch for that)?

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/24/2024 at 12:24 PM, Schmalle said:

 

Why do you cascade the preamps? Try this parallel wiring instead:

 

guitar -> HX input

HX send 1 -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> HX return 1

HX out L -> Amp1 return

HX send 2 -> Victory input

Victory output -> HX return 2

 

I just gave it a shot, now it sounds like both preamps are cascading into one another...

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/24/2024 at 12:24 PM, Schmalle said:

 

Why do you cascade the preamps? Try this parallel wiring instead:

 

guitar -> HX input

HX send 1 -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> HX return 1

HX out L -> Amp1 return

HX send 2 -> Victory input

Victory output -> HX return 2

 

I did this: "Connect the send of the multi-effects (which goes to the input of your amp) to the input of the V4 Preamp.
Connect the Through output of the V4 Preamp to the input of the amp.
Then connect the amp’s FX Send, which goes to the return of the multi-effects’ return, to the Loop In of the V4 Preamp.
After that connect the Loop Out of the V4 Preamp to the return of the multi-effects.
Finally connect the multi-effects output to the amp’s FX Return.
This way both the preamp of the amp and the V4 are in the loop of the multi-effects and the V4 works in Amp-Through mode." It's from the Victory FAQ so...

[Schmalle]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:15 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

I just gave it a shot, now it sounds like both preamps are cascading into one another...

The idea is to use the two FX loop blocks 1 and 2 as two preamp loops: you either use one or the other, either Amp1's preamp or the Victory by selecting which loop you engage.

 

On 5/24/2024 at 2:42 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

I did this: "Connect the send of the multi-effects (which goes to the input of your amp) to the input of the V4 Preamp.
Connect the Through output of the V4 Preamp to the input of the amp.
Then connect the amp’s FX Send, which goes to the return of the multi-effects’ return, to the Loop In of the V4 Preamp.
After that connect the Loop Out of the V4 Preamp to the return of the multi-effects.
Finally connect the multi-effects output to the amp’s FX Return.
This way both the preamp of the amp and the V4 are in the loop of the multi-effects and the V4 works in Amp-Through mode." It's from the Victory FAQ so...

We should be able to get this going.

 

Let's start without the HX:

Guitar -> Victory input

Victory through -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> Victory loop in

Victory loop out -> Amp1 return

 

Using Amp1's -12db loop setting: does the Victory work with just the Amp1 this way?

Can you comfortably get the levels right between the two preamps?

Does the connected but bypassed Victory add level compared to just the Amp1 (disconnected Victory)?

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:58 PM, Schmalle said:

The idea is to use the two FX loop blocks 1 and 2 as two preamp loops: you either use one or the other, either Amp1's preamp or the Victory by selecting which loop you engage.

 

We should be able to get this going.

 

Let's start without the HX:

Guitar -> Victory input

Victory through -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> Victory loop in

Victory loop out -> Amp1 return

 

Using Amp1's -12db loop setting: does the Victory work with just the Amp1 this way?

Can you comfortably get the levels right between the two preamps?

Does the connected but bypassed Victory add level compared to just the Amp1 (disconnected Victory)?

 

First off, thank you for being patient and trying to help out! Nice to see that the internet still has nice people!

 

So I did as you said, sounds fine, there aren't any weird volume jumps and I can use the volume controls on both to get them even. I have to say though, it sounds a lot better now, without the HX, so there might be some tone sucking going on there. It's also a lot quieter (no hiss whatsoever). 

 

I did put a horizon drive in the HX to push the front a bit and get a bit more gain, but i was very conservative with it (gain at 0.5, level at about 7).

 

Maybe I'll give you the whole FX chain that I had set up: in - compressor (only for clean channel) - noise gate - wah - horizon drive - FX loop - 10 BAND EQ (only for leads and at 0.0db) - simple delay (leads and clean) - spring reverb (clean). I tried to make sure nothing added any gain or volume in the chain, only in the compressor i had to add about 6-7db to get unity with the original signal..

 

Hope this helps! And thanks again :)

[Schmalle]

On 5/24/2024 at 6:59 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

 

First off, thank you for being patient and trying to help out! Nice to see that the internet still has nice people!

 

So I did as you said, sounds fine, there aren't any weird volume jumps and I can use the volume controls on both to get them even. I have to say though, it sounds a lot better now, without the HX, so there might be some tone sucking going on there. It's also a lot quieter (no hiss whatsoever). 

 

I did put a horizon drive in the HX to push the front a bit and get a bit more gain, but i was very conservative with it (gain at 0.5, level at about 7).

 

Maybe I'll give you the whole FX chain that I had set up: in - compressor (only for clean channel) - noise gate - wah - horizon drive - FX loop - 10 BAND EQ (only for leads and at 0.0db) - simple delay (leads and clean) - spring reverb (clean). I tried to make sure nothing added any gain or volume in the chain, only in the compressor i had to add about 6-7db to get unity with the original signal..

 

Hope this helps! And thanks again :)

Ok, that's nice.

 

Without the HX, if you switch to +4dBV loop level there should be a 'weird level jump', right? At least you have to crank the Victory's master to hold up with Amp1's preamp in this setting. So let's settle this: the -10dB setting works better with the Victory.

 

I'd go on and evaluate the amount of 'tone suck' by adding the HX after the preamps only:

 

Guitar -> Victory input

Victory through -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> Victory loop in

Victory loop out -> Hx input

HX out -> Amp1 return

 

Now use an empty preset, set Global Settings -> Preferences -> Bypass Type is set to Analog (aka true or hardware bypass). Now you can check if or how much 'tone suck' there is after the preamps by toggling back and forth (press MODE and Tap) between the empty preset with and the hardware bypassed HX). There should be no jumps in level between bypassed and unbypassed (given input and output levels are set to INST).

 

After that do the same but before the preamps:

 

Guitar -> HX input

HX out -> Victory input

Victory through -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> Victory loop in

Victory loop out -> Amp1 return

 

This will be more obvious of a change because you'll hear added noise especially with gain because the preamps (massively) amplify the noise. That unfortunately is the downside of putting stuff in front of a preamp.

 

With the full 4CM:

On 5/24/2024 at 10:30 AM, Tomschelfaut said:

I tried what you said, and everything gets pushed way too hard and the effects after the preamp are loud and washy (delay and reverb)...

Does bringing the mix parameter down in the delays and reverbs help?

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:33 PM, Schmalle said:

Ok, that's nice.

 

Without the HX, if you switch to +4dBV loop level there should be a 'weird level jump', right? At least you have to crank the Victory's master to hold up with Amp1's preamp in this setting. So let's settle this: the -10dB setting works better with the Victory.

 

I'd go on and evaluate the amount of 'tone suck' by adding the HX after the preamps only:

 

Guitar -> Victory input

Victory through -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> Victory loop in

Victory loop out -> Hx input

HX out -> Amp1 return

 

Now use an empty preset, set Global Settings -> Preferences -> Bypass Type is set to Analog (aka true or hardware bypass). Now you can check if or how much 'tone suck' there is after the preamps by toggling back and forth (press MODE and Tap) between the empty preset with and the hardware bypassed HX). There should be no jumps in level between bypassed and unbypassed (given input and output levels are set to INST).

 

After that do the same but before the preamps:

 

Guitar -> HX input

HX out -> Victory input

Victory through -> Amp1 input

Amp1 send -> Victory loop in

Victory loop out -> Amp1 return

 

This will be more obvious of a change because you'll hear added noise especially with gain because the preamps (massively) amplify the noise. That unfortunately is the downside of putting stuff in front of a preamp.

 

With the full 4CM:

Does bringing the mix parameter down in the delays and reverbs help?

 Ok, so I tried this the first test (after preamp) there was a change in volume compared to bypass, also some added hiss, with the second test, no difference at all...

 

As for the mix of the fx post preamp, the delay was at 19%, so not high at all...

[Tomschelfaut]

Also, very strange, when i touch the mode button with my finger there's a faint sizzling sound, like an electrical reaction, only happens when i touch that button 

[Tomschelfaut]

And another thing, the clean channel on the iridium gets pushed much more with the 4cm. When i play it with just the v4 connected, i get a nice clean sound, but with the hx in the loop, it becomes slightly distorted at the same volume position. This could be an important thing, because it probably means that somewhere the hx is inputting too much signal into the amp 1

[Tomschelfaut]

So far the only thing that seems to work best is using the +4db on the bluguitar, turning op the volume of the v4 to match the clean sound of the bluguitar, and all hx in and outs on instrument

[Schmalle]

Confirm that you are using serial FX loop mode on the Amp1.

[Schmalle]

On 5/24/2024 at 11:44 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

So far the only thing that seems to work best is using the +4db on the bluguitar, turning op the volume of the v4 to match the clean sound of the bluguitar, and all hx in and outs on instrument

But that might clip the HX input hence the -10dB recommendation for more headroom. This might explain the slight distortion on a clean tone.

[Tomschelfaut]

The bluguitar fx loop is set to series. 

[Schmalle]

I feel like chasing a moving target. We need to separate this into two problems and tackle them one at a time: HX before the preamps and HX in Amp1's loop. If we have found a solution for each you can combine to 4CM.

 

How old is the HX?

Do you have a problem with only the Amp1 and the HX in 4CM? If so: where?

 

On 5/24/2024 at 11:08 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

 Ok, so I tried this [...]with the second test [before the preamps], no difference at all...

On 5/24/2024 at 11:38 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

And another thing, the clean channel on the iridium gets pushed much more with the 4cm. [...]

This seems like a contradiction. No difference in volume but pushes the clean channel more?

 

 

[Tomschelfaut]

I did only test the V4 preamp during the whole bypass test... I'll run some more tests tomorrow and let you know what I find!

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:07 AM, Schmalle said:

How old is the HX?

Do you have a problem with only the Amp1 and the HX in 4CM? If so: where?

 

 

Didn't see this yesterday :) I don't know how old it is, I bought it second hand. It was basically mint though. I updated it to the latest software...

I'll test the bluguitar and hx as well, but I don't recall there being a problem in the past. Could be that the +4db switch had always been on though, can't remember...

[Tomschelfaut]

Ok, so I've tested a bunch of stuff, seems that I need to keep the volume of the overdrive pedal really low (below 4) in order not to add any volume to the chain. That way i get the best sound and I can match the volumes. The clean channel of the bluguitar goes into overdrive when i turn it up too high or when i set the fx loop to line level. I'm guessing it won't get any better :)

[Schmalle]

On 5/25/2024 at 11:06 AM, Tomschelfaut said:

[...]The clean channel of the bluguitar goes into overdrive when i turn it up too high or when i set the fx loop to line level. I'm guessing it won't get any better :)

Try Send/Return and Output Level to Line. In the FX Loop block lower the Send Level to -8.5dB to manually send with INST level.

[Tomschelfaut]

On 5/25/2024 at 5:46 PM, Schmalle said:

Try Send/Return and Output Level to Line. In the FX Loop block lower the Send Level to -8.5dB to manually send with INST level.

 

That seems to have done it! Now I can turn up the overdrive higher without issues! Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Like why do the output and the fx loop have to be line? Why specifically -8.5db? I'd like to understand this kind of stuff more for future issues :)

 

Thanks so much!

[Tomschelfaut]

although I now noticed that the volume of the V4 doesn't add volume anymore past the halfway point... Not that it's an issue, but it's weird :)

[Schmalle]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:10 PM, Tomschelfaut said:

 

That seems to have done it! Now I can turn up the overdrive higher without issues! Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Like why do the output and the fx loop have to be line? Why specifically -8.5db? I'd like to understand this kind of stuff more for future issues :)

 

Thanks so much!

Sure, it's about signal levels. Digital gear has A/D and D/A converters that can only handle a certain signal level without clipping. So you need to make sure you don't clip a digital input / output. But on the other hand you don't want to waste headroom because that lowers the signal-to-noise ratio.

 

HX let's you choose between two sensibilities / signal levels: INST and LINE. LINE Outs put out a higher level compared to INST and LINE Ins can handle a higher level which happens to be 8.5dB in my tests.

 

With your setup you want high sensibility for HX's guitar in and you want to send it without amplification to Amp1 in. Usually that means using INST level for the input and the send. But you can also use LINE and compensate by lowering the send level manually. In your case LINE has the benefit of using low sensibility for the signal coming from Amp1's send which seems to be quite hot. Selecting -10db loop level on the Amp1 has basically the same effect: it lowers the signal level that the HX has to handle. 

 

The +4dB and -10dB are *roughly* equivalent to HX's LINE and INST levels - hence my original advice to use -10dB and all INST, but that was just a starting point that usually works.

 

So why did you notice it on the clean channel? -Clean sounds are more dynamic (louder peaks) so you hear it causing an fx loop device to clip earlier than a crunch channel with the same perceived level. And crunch sounds already contain clipping artifacts/overtones which also makes it harder to identify additional clipping.

 

Have fun!