Question on Amp levels in Helix

[catalano]

Hi all,

I'm a long time POD HD 500 user. I'm considering stepping into the modern era and upgrading to a Helix. One quip I've had with the HD500 since day one is the inconsistent levels of the samples of the Amps themselves. It's always made it so difficult to build a set of patches using different amps that were level balanced. It was also very frustrating to build a patch that was mostly good, but then deciding to change out the amp, then having to suddenly add +8db on the Mixer or add an EQ to the chain simply to boost the signal. So my question is - has this been addressed with Helix technology or is it still a challenge?

 

Thanks,
Chris

[Schmalle]

Consider this thought experiment:

You have a high output humbucker guitar A and a low output single coil guitar B. You use guitar A on a clean amp model and level it. Now you switch to guitar B and all the volume is gone.

Then you use guitar A on a high gain amp model and level it. Now you switch to guitar B and the volume is still there, it's just less gain / distortion.

The point is: uneven default levels will always be an issue because different guitars exist.

 

That said the models in the Helix are quite well leveled when you skip through them. But you can always change the default amp settings with your user settings; nothing stops you from changing the default level of each model if you want. Also you can save amps that you like as Favorites: you can build a short list of amps with settings that you like and skip through them quickly.

[DunedinDragon]

Well you kind of need to make a choice.  Do you want the amp models you use modeled authentically or conveniently?  Plug into any two different amps with the same guitar at the same settings and there are going to be differences in tone and in volume.  It's the same in a modeler if they're digitally representing the way an actual amp works.

 

What differs on the Helix from the HD is the models have several extra and efficient ways to address these differences.  The easiest way is changing the level up or down on the output block of the signal chain which doesn't affect the tone of the signal chain, just the output level.  The amps themselves can be leveled without affecting the tone by adjusting the amps channel volume.

[catalano]

On 8/25/2024 at 3:30 AM, Schmalle said:

Consider this thought experiment:

You have a high output humbucker guitar A and a low output single coil guitar B. You use guitar A on a clean amp model and level it. Now you switch to guitar B and all the volume is gone.

Then you use guitar A on a high gain amp model and level it. Now you switch to guitar B and the volume is still there, it's just less gain / distortion.

The point is: uneven default levels will always be an issue because different guitars exist.

 

That said the models in the Helix are quite well leveled when you skip through them. But you can always change the default amp settings with your user settings; nothing stops you from changing the default level of each model if you want. Also you can save amps that you like as Favorites: you can build a short list of amps with settings that you like and skip through them quickly.

Thanks. I don’t think the guitar A and B example is relevant. It’s really about how amp A compares to amp B with all other factors being equal. But I’m glad your experience shows the amps being well balanced. With respect to your statement about ‘changing the default level of each model’, is that the typical channel volume of an amp, or is there some new parameter in the amp block that accomplishes that?

[catalano]

On 8/25/2024 at 3:53 AM, DunedinDragon said:

Well you kind of need to make a choice.  Do you want the amp models you use modeled authentically or conveniently?  Plug into any two different amps with the same guitar at the same settings and there are going to be differences in tone and in volume.  It's the same in a modeler if they're digitally representing the way an actual amp works.

 

What differs on the Helix from the HD is the models have several extra and efficient ways to address these differences.  The easiest way is changing the level up or down on the output block of the signal chain which doesn't affect the tone of the signal chain, just the output level.  The amps themselves can be leveled without affecting the tone by adjusting the amps channel volume.

Thanks. So I’m guessing the level on the output block is pretty much the same concept as the mixer block on the HD?  And I understand the practice of using the amp’s channel volume to try to balance out different patches. But it was a common problem on the HD to have developed a set of 5 or 6 patches and then add one more with something like the AC30.  You could boost the channel volume all the way and still have it not comparable to the others. Sometimes it would require maxing out the mixer block at +12 and still needing a studio EQ or something to try to get more level. 

[DunedinDragon]

It's been almost a decade since I used an HD after I switched to the Helix, but I don't remember having a problem like you described on it.  Yes there will be natural differences between amp models, but it only becomes a problem if you create signal chains  that are unreasonably and unnecessarily loud in volume which causes inconsistencies between presets.  The Helix does provide an inline real time representation of the signal level of your signal chain output level by simply selecting the output block of a preset.  When I create a preset on the Helix I tend to keep that level at around 50 to 60% to ensure ample headroom on my XLR output.  Generally my levels are only slightly more than the reading I get playing the preset with all my blocks turned off.  In other words the natural output level of the Helix.  Ultimately that physical output level is determined by the master output volume knob on the Helix where the signal gets converted from a digital signal which is used inside your signal chain to the analog signal that goes out to the rest of the world either to physical amp or mixing board.

 

It's literally no different than if you had two physical amps and the louder amp were set so high in volume that a less loud amp couldn't match it.  In my application I always go direct to the mixing board from the XLR output on the Helix.  I use the setting on the Helix that disables my Helix volume knob and all signal levels are sent at full volume.  By controlling the digital levels on my signal chain in my presets I can easily gain stage my presets coming into my mixing board with a single setting of the gain knob on the mixer.

 

This sounds more complicated than it actually is but there are literally hundreds of YouTube videos that demonstrate how to properly gain stage the Helix output.