Powercab for Acoustic Guitar....FRFR vs LF vs LF Raw

[rwinking]

So is anyone using the PC for an acoustic guitar amp? I have been for two years and was wondering what people are doing as far as FRFR, LF or LF Flat? Which one is working best for you and why? I am lately finding the FRFR a bit harsh and would like to tame it. I am using a Quad Cortex or a Helix.

Thanks

rick

[somebodyelse]

Anytime I've used an acoustic live, I've plugged direct to the PA and adjusted the onboard EQ. Recording, I always use a mic or two; never the piezo.

 

If I was setting up a preset for use with Helix/Powercab (212+ in my case), I'd probably start with a DI pre-amp block, followed by the parametric EQ, can't advise settings except for I generally apply a low cut at 100Hz and a high cut at 8kHz as an almost reflex action - adjust them as you see fit, don't be afraid to go lower on the high cut if that does the job.

In terms of the PC, I'd be using the LF Flat, probably, but I wouldn't rule out FRFR - it just depends on whether I got the 'harshness handled.

 

A tip I got from one of the gurus, here, a few years back was to go in to the PCs Global settings and turn the HF Trim down  -6dB. I also switch the Low Cut 'on' - a switch on the back of the 112s, in the Globals on the 212.

[rwinking]

Thanks for the tip on being able to adjust the HF trim! I never knew that was possible. I am using the Quad Cortex lately as they have a model of an API mic pre that is really good. I have to be careful getting into the globals on the PC as I am starting to use an acoustic and an electric on the same gig. What sounds good on one doesn't sound good on the other.

anyway, thanks again!

rick

[somebodyelse]

On 9/12/2024 at 4:55 PM, rwinking said:

Thanks for the tip on being able to adjust the HF trim! I never knew that was possible. I am using the Quad Cortex lately as they have a model of an API mic pre that is really good. I have to be careful getting into the globals on the PC as I am starting to use an acoustic and an electric on the same gig. What sounds good on one doesn't sound good on the other.

anyway, thanks again!

rick

No probs.

Like I said, I haven't used it for acoustic, so far, but that HF Trim setting has helped for electric. I wouldn't think it would hurt acoustic guitar, either. Theoretically, high cutting the preset should negate it, but that's theoretical.

I only use a Helix, with the L6 Link, so I'm not familiar with the Quad Cortex. If it can be setup up to send MIDI commands, you could set up a preset on the PC tailored to the acoustic, and then have your QC send a MIDI command to switch the PC when you select the QC's acoustic preset - obviously you'd need to connect them together with a MIDI cable, as well.

I know @rd2rk uses MIDI commands to do this with his Helix/PC setup... hopefully he'll chime in on how to do it, but if not I'm sure I can help figure it out, if necessary.

 

Regarding the different speaker modes and so on, just remember you can try stuff out on a whim. You're not committed until you press the 'save' button.

It's well worth giving the manuals a read, too.

[rwinking]

I have been using the midi commands to change speakers for a while and that way I can go from the FRFR when I am doing acoustic to the creamback which is my go to speaker for electric. I also have the 212+ but it is too heavy sometimes.

I did an all acoustic gig last night and the sound from the PC was wonderful. I did use that HF trim and it was exactly what I wanted. There was one issue still.....So I used my Quad Cortex into the PC. I then used the XLR out to the FOH but it kept clipping. Was I wrong in assuming that the XLR output would just send the same thing out as I was sending to my PC+? Should I have just sent a signal out from the QC? Or is there a way to attenuate the output on the PC+ in the globals somewhere? No matter what I did there seemed to be way too much signal.

thanks

rick

[somebodyelse]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:07 AM, rwinking said:

I have been using the midi commands to change speakers for a while and that way I can go from the FRFR when I am doing acoustic to the creamback which is my go to speaker for electric. I also have the 212+ but it is too heavy sometimes.

I did an all acoustic gig last night and the sound from the PC was wonderful. I did use that HF trim and it was exactly what I wanted. There was one issue still.....So I used my Quad Cortex into the PC. I then used the XLR out to the FOH but it kept clipping. Was I wrong in assuming that the XLR output would just send the same thing out as I was sending to my PC+? Should I have just sent a signal out from the QC? Or is there a way to attenuate the output on the PC+ in the globals somewhere? No matter what I did there seemed to be way too much signal.

thanks

rick

Hmm?

Okay, if it was a Helix, in place of the QC, I'd suggest that the XLR to PA needs level matching. You need to check whether the PA mixer takes a mic level or line level and set the XLR to match it.

The PC takes line level input signal, so the QC should be set to send line level signal to it.

Now, if that was set incorrectly when you set the preset up, then it's plausible that you may have set your levels within the preset 'wrong' to (subconsciously) compensate for a mismatch. If that was the case, then you'd potentially get level headaches 'down the line' when using other output situations.

 

Now, as said previously, I don't know the Quad Cortex; my 'advice' is based on my Helix experience, but I'm assuming the QC will have pretty much all the same settings for sending and receiving signal.

Again, those levels need to be right. Your preset may still be clipping or too quiet, BUT you have to remember, if the preset was written with those levels wrong, then it will need revising.

 

EDIT: Just occurred to me... Did you mean the XLR out from the Powercab, or the Quad Cortex?

 

If from the Powercab, it might be the XLR output is set to Line Level when it needs to be set to Mic Level - Another trip in to Global settings ;)

If it's the QC's XLR out... I downloaded the manual, but I'm hoping you mean the PC XLR out :)

 

 

 

[rwinking]

Yeah, as an owner of Quad Cortex and a few Helix devices, they are pretty much set up the same. And yes, I was talking about going from the PC to the board. Going from the QC to the PC, there is no clipping. So I will check and see what the XLR output on the PC is set for. I'll bet that is the issue.
thanks!

[somebodyelse]

On 9/14/2024 at 8:38 PM, rwinking said:

Yeah, as an owner of Quad Cortex and a few Helix devices, they are pretty much set up the same. And yes, I was talking about going from the PC to the board. Going from the QC to the PC, there is no clipping. So I will check and see what the XLR output on the PC is set for. I'll bet that is the issue.
thanks!

My apologies, buddy. In situations like this, I always assume the other person isn't experienced in 'digital' - better to state the obvious than blind someone with science.

 

According to the manual, the Powercab's XLR outs are set to mic by default, so the head-scratching may not be over...

 

I'm going to have a play around here, try something - I don't have a PA, but I might be able to test a theory through my audio interface. I'll be back ;)

 

EDIT:

 

Okay, did a quick experiment. Plugged my POD Go in to a PC112+, using a 1/4" set to Line Level.

If you're like me (I suspect this may be the reason for the clipping), you set your preset output levels by using the Powercab input light next to the volume knob - I do 'em so they just tickle the red when I really give it some 'welly'.

So, I took an XLR from the PC to a mic input on my audio interface, and with the preset just 'tickling the red' on the PC, with no clipping heard at the speaker, it was making the peak' light on interface blink, even with no gain, and I could hear mild clipping in the headphones.

By the way, the XLRs are not affected by the volume knob on the PC.

The easiest options are; drop the input level a dB or two in the PC's global settings and turn the volume up to compensate, but this could ruin how your presets sound/feel. Turn down the QC a couple of dB - same 'risk' as altering the PC.

The other idea I had...

If you're anything like me, you set a preset up, as I said before, to tickle the red in the calm of the living room/rehearsal room.

When you hit the stage, the adrenaline kicks in and you hit it a little harder. On clean sounds that can be really 'peaky', whereas in an edge of break-up/distorted sound those peaks tend to be damped a little by the amp/cab model.

So, I thought 'compressor at the end of the acoustic preset'. Nothing dramatic, just enough to reign in the peaks when it gets a bit energetic.

 

On the POD (and the Helix) there's one called the 'Deluxe Comp', which has Ratio, Threshold, Attack, Release, Mix Level & Knee controls.

Obviously, these are the settings that worked in my situation, but they're a good place to start.

I set the ratio to 4:1, the attack to it's lowest possible setting - 0.2ms in this case - the release to 100ms, then brought the threshold down until the Powercab's light stopped turning red, no matter how hard I hit the guitar.

I adjusted the compressor output level to until I got the same whether it's on or off and checked that it still wasn't lighting up the red when hitting the guitar hard.

When I checked it through the interface, the peak light didn't light, until I wound some gain on, no clipping. No change in sound that I could detect. Result!

I ended up with settings as follows -

Threshold - -9dB

Ratio - 4:1

Attack - 0.2 ms

Release - 100ms

Mix 100 %

Level - 0.0 dB

Knee (Default) - 6.0 dB

 

There'll be a similar style of compressor in the QC, I'm sure. Find one, put it last in the chain.

It's not about compressing the guitar for tonal reasons, just controlling the attack when the adrenaline kicks in.

[rwinking]

Man, I really appreciate all of the research you have been doing and before my next gig I will try going into the interface in my studio like you did. So another thing I might try is lowering the output on each patch and then making that up with the PC volume knob, since as you suggested, that would have no impact on the XLR out

Here is my signal flow:

Guitar(with the Dimarzio black angel sytem which has a piezo and magnetic pickups) stereo out into a Grace Felix (with each channel having separate EQ) -> the Quad

Cortex )using an API modeled preamp,Verb, DDL and then another EQ. Coming out of the PC+, it sounds like God and if not for the clipping, it should sound pretty close in the PA. YOu have given me plenty of ideas to trouble shoot before my next acoustic gig which is this Thursday with another on Friday and then Sunday.

The PA that I had the problem with is for my Thursday night gig. I'll hopefully have tried out everything you've suggested between now and then.

Thanks again and I hope that I can pass your kindness forward, although sometimes it is hard to find someone who know less than me!

 

rick