MIDI Bypass Block Control Changes via SetlistMaker

[DOndek]

Hi all, I'm trying to get the SetlistMaker app to communicate with my Helix floor via MIDI (USB).  I've been able to get the app to send the correct MSB, LSB, PC codes to change Helix presets when I switch songs.  Additionally, I've added Control Changes to have the Helix switch into Stomp Mode, but the final piece is to turn a block (attached to a footswitch) on the Helix preset once in stomp mode.  The reason for this is because each Helix preset I use live has a Send/Return (FX Loop 4) block connected to an external tuner, which of course mutes the preset, but when switching songs (and therefore presets) in a gig setting, I want the patches to be 'live'.  All of my Helix Presets have a block like this and they are defaulted to have the block 'on' so that when I plug in / switch to a particular patch, it's muted for tuning and to avoid any unwanted hum (ie an acoustic guitar) if I'm not actively playing when switching.  

 

I've entered Control Change 71 Value 0 to get the Helix Preset into Stomp Mode and then Control Change 50 Value 127 to get FS2 to turn that footswitch (and the associated Send/Return block) off.  Here is the PROBLEM: What is essentially happening is that regardless of the song and it's associated MIDI preset, the behavior of that switch is defaulting on/off every other time a Helix patch is selected.  For example, when I select song 1, it turns that switch off (desired result), but when I switch songs (whether the next song has a different MIDI preset or the same MIDI preset as the previous song), it turns the switch on.  It alternates consistently from song to song or preset to preset.  I basically need the Helix to turn that block/footswitch to 'off' whenever it receives a MIDI command.  

Thanks for the help!  

[rd2rk]

This appears to be due to a bug in the Helix MIDI implementation.

 

Using a MIDI Controller, I sent both FS (CC#51) and MIDI messages (using CC#4) on separate switches.

Despite what the manual says - that the MIDI CCs for the FS will TOGGLE the FS using VALUE 0 (OFF) and 127 (ON), the FS toggles REGARDLESS of the VALUE.

When I switched from "FS BYPASS" with CC#51 to "MIDI BYPASS" with CC#4 it worked as expected using VALUES of 0/127.

 

When I created a MIDI track in Reaper and configured it to send the MIDI ON (127) VALUE, it behaved like the FS command, toggling regardless of VALUE.

Since Reaper doesn't allow (AFAICT) for both ON and OFF values in the MIDI Event Editor, that would seem to indicate that Reaper sends alternating ON/OFF messages by default (verified with a MIDI MONITOR). Which makes no sense to me, but then, I don't usually do this sort of thing - controlling Helix with MIDI Tracks.

 

In your case, I would switch the FX Loop Blocks to MIDI BYPASS (change SetListMaker accordingly) and if the problem persists get a MIDI Monitor to see what, EXACTLY, is being sent by SetListMaker. I had a VERY QUICK look at the SetListMaker manual and it appears that, like Reaper, it only allows for setting 1 VALUE for CCs. It MAY be behaving like Reaper and Automatically sending alternating ON/OFF Values.

[DOndek]

Hi.  Thanks for the reply.  As I'm fairly new to the world of MIDI, there are some things in your reply that I don't quite understand, but will keep trying to make heads or tails of it.  That said, as I am able to have MIDI change the Helix Preset, go to Stomp Mode, and (at least every other message) disengage a footswitch, I thought I had the general gist of MIDI.  As you say, it may be a bug in one of the devices. 

 

Line6 finally sent a reply to my inquiry telling me to look at the Helix manual (really?) which I did, but they did not address my specific issue.  I am also having a back and forth on an open ticket with the SetlistMaker app developer, but he is unfamiliar with the Helix and how it functions. 

 

His app does have a MIDI Status Log and I can see when a message was sent, but as a MIDI newbie, I don't fully understand how to read it as the values in the log don't look like the MSB, LSB, PC numbers in my MIDI presets.  

[rd2rk]

Here's where a screenshot of that MIDI Log would be helpful. It would also help to know what platform SetListMaker is running on.

I should also point out that SetListMaker is now abandonware, having been replaced by BandHelper.

[DOndek]

Hi.  Circling back on this.  So, if I understand your 2nd to last reply, I updated FS2 on the Helix under Bypass/Controller Assign > MIDI In > CC4, and then in SetList Maker I put the Control Change as 50 and 4.  If that's correct, the behavior remained the same: every other time I call that MIDI preset it turns FS2 on the first time, then off the next time, then on the next time, etc.  Below are the last several commands from the MIDI log, which is essentially calling the same MIDI preset multiple times. 

Also, I am aware that SLM has been replaced by the developer with BandHelper, but he actively supports SLM (he's just not making updates going forward) and I have an open ticket with him on this topic. 

13:28:14.783 - sending data [BF, 47, 00, BF, 32, 04] to all ports (48)
13:28:14.784 - sending data [BF, 00, 00, BF, 20, 05, CF, 02] to all ports
13:28:27.474 - sending data [BF, 47, 00, BF, 32, 04] to all ports
13:28:27.474 - sending data [BF, 00, 00, BF, 20, 05, CF, 02] to all ports
13:28:28.415 - sending data [BF, 47, 00, BF, 32, 04] to all ports
13:28:28.415 - sending data [BF, 00, 00, BF, 20, 05, CF, 02] to all ports
13:28:29.867 - sending data [BF, 47, 00, BF, 32, 04] to all ports
13:28:30.466 - sending data [BF, 00, 00, BF, 20, 05, CF, 02] to all ports (2)
13:28:30.467 - sending data [BF, 47, 00, BF, 32, 04] to all ports

Thanks! 

[rd2rk]

You still have the FS2 acting as BYPASS. BYPASS on that Block should ONLY be MIDI BYPASS.

However, set like this, Reaper is still toggling the effect repeatedly for no reason that I can deduce.

What's more, this toggling phenomenon only happens if I specify an ON (127) Value. OFF (0) does NOT toggle the effect repeatedly!

Try (after eliminating the FS BYPASS setting and CC#50 message) this.

Instead of sending the ON value, send an OFF value. See if it does the same in SLM as I described for Reaper.

 

 

[DOndek]

Hi, sorry for the delay, the site would not allow me to reply for a few days (??).  Thanks for the reply.  I hope I'm following what you're proposing, but I may be a little confused as it's still not working (I tried values of 0 and 127 for the CC).  But, when you say "BYPASS on that Block should ONLY be MIDI BYPASS" and "eliminating the FS BYPASS setting" , I assume you mean when I go into Helix Edit, have the MIDI IN turned to CC4 on the BYPASS/CONTROLLER ASSING screen ?  And then in SLM, I'm confused too, as it sounds as though you're saying to remove the CC#50 message, but don't CC's need the 2 codes (the CC and the Value)? Thx!   

[rd2rk]

In HX Edit, when you RIGHT CLICK on a block, the drop-down menu contains BYPASS ASSIGN. That sets the BYPASS to a FS. Set that to NONE.

That drop-down also shows MIDI BYPASS. Set that to the desired MIDI CC#.

CC#50 activates FS2. You've set the FS to NONE in BYPASS ASSIGN, so that command is not necessary for this experiment.

 

What I'm trying to establish is whether the block is bypassed (using MIDI) when you send it an OFF Value (0) vs an ON Value (127).

Reason being that when I do this in Reaper, 127 always TOGGLES, 0 does not. I want to see if it's the same in SLM, which would likely indicate that it's telling Helix to TOGGLE when it receives 127. Some programs do that so that (I assume) if you're using a controller that does not have a TOGGLE function you can still toggle a setting. THU allows that option by having the user tap the switch twice when using the LEARN function. If it gets the same message twice it knows to toggle using THAT Value, vs getting 127/0 which tells it to use normal toggling. Positive Grid BIAS FX OTOH, toggles regardless of what Value it receives on the assigned CC, no options. I HATE that!

 

Anyhow, I'm spit balling here, just trying to narrow down where the strange toggling behavior is coming from. When I use a MIDI controller directly on a Helix block assigned to BYPASS using a CC, it ALWAYS turns on with 127 and STAYS on regardless of how many times I send 127. Conversely, a Value of 0 ALWAYS BYPASSES the block and it STAYS BYPASSED regardless of how many times I send 0. So Helix MIDI BYPASS uses regular toggling messages 0/127. That indicates that the problem is PROBABLY similar MIDI coding in both Reaper and SLM. That neither allows you to specify the ON/OFF Values - MIDI Standard is any Value between 0-63=OFF;64-127=ON and Helix uses this standard - causes me to think that Reaper and SLM are the source of the problem.

[DOndek]

OK, I think I follow.  I've changed both BYPASS ASSIGN and MIDI BYPASS in HX Edit on the FX block to None.  I'm still unclear on what I'm sending from SLM in this test.  Since we no longer have FX Loop tied to a FS, sending CC 50 with a value of either 0 or 127 would seem irrelevant to me now, so I'm unclear on what command in SLM to send to bypass the block?  Thanks.  

[DOndek]

Adding to my last reply.  I shared your last comments with the SLM app developer and he replied with: 

 

"Reason being that when I do this in Reaper, 127 always TOGGLES, 0 does not. I want to see if it's the same in SLM"
Set List Maker doesn't do that. You can set the CC value to 0, 127 or any number in between and it will always send the number you entered. You can see that from the output from your MIDI log that I added to this ticket on March 20.

"That neither allows you to specify the ON/OFF Values..."
Set List Maker does allow you to specify the CC value. CC messages have two fields, Controller and Value.

[rd2rk]

 

I think I've been misunderstanding what you're trying to do. My bad!

 

On re-reading your posts, it seems that you're trying to have dual use presets - they behave one way when you MANUALLY load the preset SEND Block ON.

And another way when loaded by SLM - SEND Block OFF.

 

So, the problem is the dual use requirement and the way Helix handles FS toggling.

 

Dump the first part - CC#71 - switching MODE is not necessary except when MANUALLY loading the preset.

Unless you WANT to be in Stomp Mode.

 

Set the SEND Block to use BOTH FS1 and MIDI BYPASS CC#4 and SAVE the Helix preset with the SEND Block ON.

Set SLM to load the setlist/preset, then send CC#4 Value 0. DO NOT SEND CC#50!!!

If you WANT to be in Stomp Mode, this is where to send CC#71 Value 0.

You may need to add a WAIT or, as I did in Reaper to test this, the preset loads at (track time) 1.1.0 (START) and the CC runs at 1.1.1 to allow time for the preset to load before sending the OFF message to the SEND Block.

 

What you're doing is toggling the SEND Block OFF with MIDI CC#4 Value 0 from SLM but using FS1 when loading the preset MANUALLY.

 

I've attached a simple example preset with nothing but a SEND Block. Note the settings for BYPASS ASSIGN (FS1) and MIDI BYPASS (CC#4).

Snapshot Bypass is OFF in case you're using Snapshots, to prevent surprises.

 

I tested this with Reaper and no more repeated toggling.

 

Here's what the MIDI Editor looks like in Reaper - the Preset on my Helix is setlist 0 PC#22, All Notes Off is a Reaper thing:

 

 

 

DOndek.hlx

[DOndek]

OK, first of all, THANK YOU for all the help and the time you've taken on this.  WE (YOU) GOT IT!  Your last explanation and the sample preset you sent really helped clarify this for me and I was able to understand it better and make the necessary adjustments on my Helix as well as in SLM.  A couple points to note (and for anyone else in the future who may read this):

• You are correct with regards to the dual use of the Block (ON when switching presets manually via FS, OFF when switching presets via SLM MIDI). No snapshots (for now), that's 2.0 for me on this journey.  
   
• Yes, I do want the Command Change (71 0) for Stomp Mode.  The purpose of this is for performance, so for example, if I'm at a gig in my full band and I have a 6 string acoustic, a 12 string acoustic, and an electric (which actually has 2 outputs; magnetics and a piezo, more on that later) and I'm switching songs AND switching guitars, the idea is to tap the right song title in SLM and have it call up the corresponding Helix Preset for that guitar > change into Stomp Mode > and unmute the Send/Return FX Loop block that I have linked for an external tuner (all my Helix presets are set with that block engaged so that the Preset for that guitar isn't 'on' while I'm plugging in/out, etc.
   
• 1 of my guitars is a PRS Hollowbody II Piezo, so it has 2 outputs, one for the magnetic electric pickups and one for the piezo 'acoustic' output, each with it's own input into the Helix but they have independent signal paths in the Helix Preset.  One output functions like the other Presets for the external tuner/mute block but it caused me to need to create an additional mute 'switch' via a Volume block on that Preset (requiring me to engage 2 FS to unmute the guitar).  In this case, I created the same CC (4 0) for the S/R FX Block and then an additional CC (5 0) for the Volume block to unmute both inputs from that guitar. 
   
• I did have to make a MIDI timing adjustment in SLM for a delay of .1 seconds (Settings > Audio & MIDI > MIDI Options > MIDI Preset Order > ...with Delay Between = 0.1 sec) in order to get the CC 4 0 to work correctly.  Fortunately, this only creates a slight delay when switching instruments (it does not create a delay if I switch songs in SLM and the primary MIDI preset in both songs is for the same guitar, which is great for continuity while performing live) but the slight delay when switching instruments won't be an issue. 

I just tested it between songs, guitars, etc. and it's fantastic!  SLM is changing the presets, going into stomp mode, and un-muting the S/R FX Loop block(s)!  THANK YOU AGAIN!  

[rd2rk]

ROCK ON!