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Single String 'gurgling' With Distorted Sound?


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#1 MartinDorr

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:42 AM

Looking for cause. When using mid to high gain sounds I noticed by G string notes starting on about fret 10 and higher have a strong 'gurling' sound effect.

I am guessing at some resonance in the guitar mechanics or a faulty piezo as reasons, but really have no clue.

Sorry if this was discussed before. Tried a couple searches but could not find a hit.

Appreciate any advice on how to zero in what's broke or even better, a fix ;-)


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#2 arislaf

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:47 AM

For begin, let's limit the sources. When with the true pick ups you still hear it?


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#3 MartinDorr

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:04 AM

Good point, haven't done that yet.

Should have thought a little more b4 posting ;-)

Thanks


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#4 arislaf

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:29 AM

Welcome, waiting your reply!


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#5 MartinDorr

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

I tried (a re-tried to be sure)

* Variax piezo (worst)

* Variax mags (better but still there)

* Analog mags (better and better hidden by signal noise)

I'd guess this means that its maybe some resonance effect most noticeable on the G string and most amplified with an overdriven amp model.

There is a little bit of the effect on some notes on other strings, but the G string is just aggravatingly bad. So bad that you really don't want to hold a long note in the region where its worst.

Damping? where to start? something else? Magic?

Hoping for ideas


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#6 arislaf

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:06 AM

 

For begin. The same apply for the bridge.What is your JTV?


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#7 hurghanico

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:07 AM

..I'd guess this means that its maybe some resonance effect most noticeable on the G string and most amplified with an overdriven amp model.

There is a little bit of the effect on some notes on other strings, but the G string is just aggravatingly bad. So bad that you really don't want to hold a long note in the region where its worst...

 

first thing to do is to connect the guitar to a standard amp or to the pod without any active amp model to hear if something strange is coming from your instrument or not.. maybe your axe strings are not perfectly intonated at the 12th fret or they are a bit old..

but I strongly suspect that what you are experiencing is the ghost notes phenomenon associated with some pod amp models, if so it should be more apparent only with a few amp models, and it's a normal behaviour also with some real tube amps.. if not too much and to a certain degree it contributes to give the tube feel.. but some people don't like at all.. I know that also the axe-fx reproduces that thing..

if this is the case, you can do something with the amp model dep parameters to lessen that behaviour..


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#8 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:43 AM

If you get any of it with just the mag pickups (battery removed) then it's the guitar setup itself.  Look for something wrong at the bridge or nut or fretboard that is causing the G string not to ring out properly.


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#9 MartinDorr

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:39 AM

Thanks for all the tips.

Current status is that I was able to break down the problem into 4 contributing factors:
1) Inexperience in how to play high gain sound melodies, e.g., sloppy tying of notes w/o significant re-triggering causes some wild effects (and gurgling)
2) There are naturally occuring (and modelled) sound effects of the selected amp (both good (if you know how to use them) and bad (if they surprise you))
3) New strings and tighening loose lock nut pegs have an effect on tone ring out (surprised? not really - I should have checked).
4) There is still something going on in how my G string rings out (seems like a whole bunch of frequencies fade out quickly after about a second (not clear whether they should have been there in the first place) and this seems to increase the gurgly character of the G string sound.

Overall it's definitely better, but because I can hear the ring out differences on both clean (no amp) and overdriven sounds I suspect there is still something yet to be fixed in my guitar mechanics though i have no clue of what else to check for looseness, dirt, or whatever. Everything feels solid and dampening anything I could think of did not change the outcome. The action is not low either.

... and I have a Korean JTV-69, HD-500, DT-25 Combo (someone asked earlier).
Did not use the DT-25 for the experiments to minimize the variables.
Maybe the Korean build quality is biting me ...

Appreciate if you have any further tips on what to check.
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#10 hurghanico

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:56 AM

..Appreciate if you have any further tips on what to check...

 

if you want, check also the tremolo springs

try putting a piece of cloth in the middle of them and see if anything changes

 

anyway a demo clip would help to better understand your problem


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#11 MartinDorr

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 07:05 PM

Having trouble uploading anything.

How does 'My Media' work or is the only way to post to a 3rd party web site and link?


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#12 MartinDorr

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 07:32 PM

Ok, I figured it out (but why hide how to add attachments in reply options ?-)

 
Played 4 Gs on different strings (high E and down) w/o any attempt to improve tone or sustain to get bare tone and natural ring out.
#3 (playing G on 12th fret G string) is clearly worst with shortest ring out time and gurgling right from the start. Happens on any note I play on teh G string, but is most noticeable in upper octave.
 
Tightening all tuning pegs helped most, but did not eliminate the problem.
New strings helped, but not by much.
Dampening the tremolo springs may have helped, but I can't tell for sure.
 
Attached File  HD500 Check.mp3   430.94KB   16 downloads

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#13 clay-man

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:11 PM

Are you using alt tunings?


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For a minute there, I lost myself.

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#14 hurghanico

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:49 AM

....Happens on any note I play on teh G string, but is most noticeable in upper octave....

 

maybe the piezo is catching a little also the slightly vibrating part of the string on the left of the fretted note..

try dampening that part of the string with a free finger or two, and see if that helps..

the G is the guitar's most resonant plain string, and normally accentuates more than others every little nuance

when you play at the 12th fret you have 2 almost identical halves of the string beside the fretted note, one on the left and one on the right.. we expect that the left side doesn't vibrate, but often it does a little, and can be catched by pickups..

since at the 12th fret there are 2 almost identical string halves you get something similar to when two strings ringing together are not perfectly in tune

 

if you do some tapping notes especially on the 3 first plain strings from around the 12 fret area onwards, you can hear both sides (left and right) of the strings ringing together..

 

let say that the more free string length there is on the left of the fretted note, the more easily it can passively vibrate


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#15 MartinDorr

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:15 AM

Are you using alt tunings?

No, standard tuning, similar effect with mags via Variax or analog connection.

But the effect depends on the selected guitar model (the sample is Lester bridge) and the Amp model

The bridge mags on my JTV-69 are not as hot, but even adjusting for that with more Amp Drive does not produce as much of a gurgling effect.


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#16 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:21 AM

If it does it with the mags  it is not the electronics.  It is mechanical.


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#17 MartinDorr

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:43 PM

maybe the piezo is catching a little also the slightly vibrating part of the string on the left of the fretted note..

try dampening that part of the string with a free finger or two, and see if that helps..

I wish you were right but that's not it either.

I guess that leaves the nut or the adjustable saddle as the next best choice to suspect if its a mechanical issue.

I'd have to agree with Charlie_Watt that if it does it with mags it really can't be the piezzos.

Guess I have to get a magnifiying glass and play Holmes ;-(.

Anyone with experience on what could be wrong with the nut opening or the saddle (or how it attaches to the bridge - a loose screw?)


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#18 clay-man

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:50 PM

I wish you were right but that's not it either.

I guess that leaves the nut or the adjustable saddle as the next best choice to suspect if its a mechanical issue.

I'd have to agree with Charlie_Watt that if it does it with mags it really can't be the piezzos.

Guess I have to get a magnifiying glass and play Holmes ;-(.

Anyone with experience on what could be wrong with the nut opening or the saddle (or how it attaches to the bridge - a loose screw?)

 

I think he is talking about the physical part of the piezo, which is in the saddle. The peizos are the capsules sticking out of the saddles, which is where part of the string sits, because piezos are contact pickups.


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For a minute there, I lost myself.

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#19 hurghanico

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 01:26 AM

...I guess that leaves the nut or the adjustable saddle as the next best choice to suspect if its a mechanical issue...

 

another possible cause of unwanted mechanical resonance in some cases may be due to a truss rod with the bolt too loose..
it can happen in some cases that the factory settings are made too quickly and roughly


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#20 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:24 AM

It could be the nut but it could be anything in the guitar that is loose and free to vibrate.  It could just be a resonance somewhere.  Once you find it you can damp it out easily.


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