Stratman82

Are you absolutely certain about this? As per my reply above the DT25 in LVM, to my ears, more authentically emulates my full amp patches (as heard via pod alone) when fed full amp patches...

I've had the same experience in that generally I'm happier with the DT25s tones/ response/ predictability with full amp patches either in LVM or full power mode. I put a similar thread up about this recently and most seemed to disagree. As far as I can tell from these forums it seems that no one (mabye not even Line 6) is entirely sure how the DT25s power tubes are being utilised and influencing tone with full amp patches in full volume mode. If they're not active at all and it still sounds better then there's little point in playing through a tube amp!

Ok, like a true hypocritical turncoat I knocked up a patch to try and emulate the (Les Paul) tone in the Andertons Orange OR15H demo video that I've been salivating over.... Made playing my Les Paul Studio, bridge pickup. Patch link here: http://line6.com/customtone/tone/239945/ Andertons video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gz60KS64pU Did I get close?!

Cheers. I suspect what I'll end up doing is (if I like the Orange as much as I hope) use that for loud use +/- attenuator. For night-time, silent use through headphones I'll approximate the tone somehow with the HD500x and one of its amp models. Either that or I could take the direct out Orange signal from the attenuator in "Load" mode into the podHD (I think??) or into my Yamaha THR10. Or mabye I'll prefer the DT/ Line 6 tone after all and sell the Orange....! I'll post the outcome on this thread in the future so those that are interested may want to follow the topic. Signing out. T.

Fair enough!

I agree with every word of this, very well put. Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too. I'm not as experienced as you with amps so mabye I just haven't been through enough trial and error to feel satisfied. I certainly think a lot of people write-off this sort of kit in ignorance without even trying (or hearing) it and I'm not one of those! I think ultimately there is no absolute right or wrong answer here, just what works for individuals under individual circumstances. Of all my amp related kit the podHD500x is the last thing I'd sell, no doubt! I bought an OR15H this morning. I'll A/B it against the DT and make a final, properly informed decision on which amp to keep. Thats the best I can do.

Its's not that the modelling "isn't cutting it"....the tone quality is good enough for an amateur/ hobbyist musician like me who mainly plays at home. There may be better all-tube options at home, I really don't know. Concerned that the unit will be obsolete in a few years, yes. Concerned that my time mastering Line 6-specific software that will also be obsolete in time, yes. Concerned that no amp techs will have a scooby how to fix my DT25 when it breaks down in 15years, definately. I'm a Line 6 fan, not a modelling hater. I've had podfarm, a Toneport UXI interface, podHD 300 (now upgraded to HD500x) and DT25. I'm just being pragmatic/ realistic about it all. No offense intended towards anyone that feels they have found the ultimate, lifelong solution for their needs in the podHD/ DT combination. Mabye it is and I will, in time eat my words!!

I agree, as in my post above, that this kit sounds and feels good. As you say, in many ways the "pinnacle" of modelling at present. But that statement in itself concedes that this technology is constantly evolving. The podHD modelling software will likely be outdated in less than 10 years. Do you think your DT50 part digital amp will still be receiving firmware updates or be universally serviceable in 20-30 years? Mabye that's not important as we should live for the present....but I for one can't shake the desire for a classic "amp for life" that will never be overtaken in terms of quality or usefulness by digital technology. It's the reason I won't buy a variax / robot guitar. It's the reason I'm concerned that much of my time spent mastering the Line 6 kit is worthless as soon as I plug into a different brand.

Did you reach a conclusion on this? I'm about to run a thd hotplate line out into a podHD too, ideally cab sim only (amp sim off)... Thanks

Intriguing....sounds good. I knew I wouldn't be the only one drooling over the tone in that video!

Update: I may fall on my own sword here and ultimately lose cash through foolhardy inexperience but.... I've decided to give an OR15H a spin hooked up to my DT25 combo speaker. The DTs 8ohm speaker impedance means that in the (likely) event that the Orange tone is lacking at home volume in the 7 watt mode, I can crank it up and try attenuating with my 8ohm THD hotplate. It also means I keep the DT25 in the short term before making a final decision on this, whilst avoiding an immediate requirement to purchase a new 112 cab. I think a direct comparison and trial at home is the only way to settle this. I may eat my words and decide I prefer the Line 6 tones + versatility after all. Or, I may prefer the Orange tones and be bowled over by its simplicity. I'll sell the unit that I like the least rather than hastily selling the DT first and regretting it later.... Sold some other gear to finance half the Orange head price so potential loses are less. I'll keep you posted for those that care!

No disrespect taken, all views on this are valid and I respect your 40 years of experience...much more than I have! Mostly a home player- yes. Ideally want the "full crank tube tone"- yes, don't we all? Thats the underlying reason driving the trend towards low wattage tube amps and better modelling across the board....a large proportion of modern guitarists are home based hobbyists like me. We don't want to compromise on tone beyond the confines of volume (admittedly most guitar tones are better at higher volume so theres a quality cap when playing at home). Hence why I've gone for a quality modeller in the HD500x, hence why I went for the hybrid tube amp (DT25 combo) that's designed to integrate with it. Hence why I haven't chosen a Spider, GDEC or similar. Hence why I spend hours noodling with the settings on both units trying to acheive the best tones possible under the circumstances. I've even tried the DT25, tubes blaring with the master volume cranked, hooked up to an 8ohm THD hotplate attenuator to reduce the decibel level to something manageable at home. The result? Ok but beyond about -12db of attenuation the tone suffers to the point where it is definately no better than the kit running in full digital mode with no "real tube" influence (i.e. LVM)....indeed I haven't fully convinced myself that full tube tone with this setup is definately better than full digital mode without attenuation but thats another topic. I agree there's no perfect solution. I also agree that the HD500 and DT25 combo is an excellent (even world class) piece of kit within its remit and that it is undoubtedly excellent value for money given its versatility. I think we can probably also agree that the "Gold Standard" is great tube amplifier tone, as you say the "best in the world". Hence why Line 6 is "modelling" real tube amps rather than trying to redifine where electric guitar sound should come from in the first place. Hence why all the seemingly infinate tweakable parameters on this kit are designed to emulate varying analogue characteristics of real tube amps, from gain levels to bias to Sag. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery after all! I also accept that old style all-analogue rigs were also eminantly "tweakable" and require regular re-adjustment.....which leads me on to my original point and my first post on this thread.... I'll start with the caveat that, as great as this kit is (especially in terms of versatility) I haven't come across anyone who would say that any of the individual tones are completely equal or better to the original amps they emulate. Secondly, there is almost no debate that as good as the "feel" of playing through this kit is, the majority of players prefer the "feel" and responsiveness of full analogue tube kit (correct me if I'm wrong). I felt it for myself last week when I played through a friends Fender Blackface- tone at reasonable volume was very simialr to my Line 6 kit, but the Fender gear was more clearly significantly superior in terms of "feel" and touch sensitivity... My original point (at last).. Most would probably agree that there are certain compromises with this type of kit (as good as it is). Certainly fewer on this forum than other forums! With that in mind I would suggest that the DT25 is (excellent) 1st generation hybrid analogue-digital gear. There is a massive learning curve which, after 2 years, I think I am still on the steep part of! I've spent a good proportion of my "guitar time" with one hand on the guitar and the other on my laptop tweaking various pod or amp parameters. I am completely happy about spending so much time tweaking to acheive satisfactory tones? Clearly not given this thread! And crucially, has all this tweaking, learning and skill aquisition been a worthwhile investment of time in my guitar playing with the future in mind?? Thats what I'm concerned about. Time spent tweaking digital parameters on and mastering software that will soon be outdated, on a part-digital hybrid amp that will also be outdated sooner or later. And this at the expense of focused guitar practice time. The analogue kit that this Line 6 gear tries to emulate (and it does a good job) is timeless.....it won't be overtaken by a faster PCB or fancier computer software or more seemless digital interfaces between components. Noone will ever listen to Led Zeppelin II and wish Page had recorded his guitar tone on a digital modeller. I'd also contend that time spent getting to grips with that analogue equipment is more cross transferable between amp brands. With the Line 6 kit I'm getting good at their take on all of this. If I move to a different company in the future....its back to square one. Yes, the Line 6 gear is excellent within its remit. Its supremely versatile. As good or better than the real thing in terms of tone and feel?...few outwith this forum would argue that. Maddeningly complicated and difficult to programme optimally (although great tones are possible)? Yes! Future proof and worth the massive investment of time? Worryingly, probably not. I would wager that in 50 years people will still be playing Fender Deluxe Reverbs and AC30s. Call of Duty...DT25s...??

Guys, I really appreciate your thoughtful advice...I can honestly say that (for whatever reason) the responses on this forum seem so much better considered an, well, intelligent than other forums! Mabye tech- minded people are drawn to Line 6 gear! Anyway, you're starting to change my way of thinking on this (not usually an easy task)... Mabye a more old school approach to the DT will help initially...surprising how many seem to take this approach despite all the versatility on tap. I guess lack of "plug and play" is the trade off for versatility in this case. Admittedly, lack of opportunity to tweak at higher volumes probably colours my views too. I'll keep the DT25.... will no doubt be tempted by an OR15H soon though....!

You are correct, I'm mainly a home player. Occasional informal jams with friends. Very rarely a gig on special occasions. Therefore most of my playing does tend to be at lower volume. However I do know what tones I want (I've got several great home/podhd patches that I'll try and get on customtone shortly). Indeed I'd go as far as saying I'm quite good at making patches as I almost always prefer my own to most of the rubbish on customtone! I've even paid for patches before (Glenn Delaune I think the website was) which sounded great on his website but weren't as good as my own in "real life".... So I know what I'm after tone wise and I've already used DT edit to change the preamps on my DT25. Having said that when I saw this video I almost cried (well, not quite), it's the crunch tone of my dreams and I can't get it so far on the line 6 rig. Maybe that's what's put me off the DT25 after 2 years of use.... Have you managed to get close to this crunch tone and if so how how how?!http://youtu.be/-gz60KS64pU

Thanks for your detailed explanation! That's all very interesting. I actually use the DT25 112 combo. From what your saying I gather the microphone emulation is automatically bypassed in full power mode then (as opposed to via XLR)? Or do I need to switch off via midi? Your correct that I rarely turn up loud as I'm mainly a home/ small jam player. Many I'd have had more success with full power mode if I'd been able to tweak at 110db in a barn or something! Mabye I'm just so used to the modelled tone I get that I've lost judgement! I guess the main problem is that all the tweaking has detracted from the fun of the thing- I somehow feel that if I had a small wattage monster like an Orange OR15 I could just plug in and rock out to real tube goodness without hours of tweaking in the run up!

Thanks for you reply, its food for thought. I must say that my experience is that I dont get exactly the same tones with the podHD via L6 using pre only models.... In fact, as far as I can tell thats not always possible because of a fixed microphone model in the amp..... I use DT edit via midi and have changed some of the internal models in the amp. However what I notice is that although the amp and cab can be set per individual voicing, the modelled microphone within the DT amp is the same for every voicing, you can't change it per voicing. Now that doesnt mater if playing via the pod which will change the cab microphone but it will matter if playing via the DT alone. We all know from fiddling with this stuff in full mode with the podHD that the simulated microphone selected makes a HUGE difference to the tone. That will affect the DT25 standalone tones as well, making close tone matching impossible in some situations. I'd go as far as saying I can acheive a more consistent tone/ volume/ result by using the DT (in full power mode) and using the same full amp model patches I use with the pod on its own. In this case I can use the DT amps master volume to control loudness without significantly changing the (digital) tone. I don't know how much, if any, effect the tubes are having in this situation (full amp models in full power mode). If its no influence at all, theres probably no point in having a tube amp! I find it much harder to tweak and and find useable pre amp patches in full volume mode- they actually sound worse to me!

This topic kind of began in a thread I started in the podHD section yesterday discussing fully digital tone vs tube tone from the DT25 + podHD500x combination. That thread is here: http://line6.com/support/topic/3229-podhd500x-alone-sounds-better-than-my-dt25-in-full-power-mode/ I thought it was worth bringing this more philosophical part of the discussion into a separate thread. The gist of it is as below (please forgive the gaming analogy but it seems appropriate): "Philosophically, I've stopped playing computer games as I feel the time invested in acquisition of guitar skill is much better spent. It's cross transferable and will last forever. Skill on a computer game is often only useful until you start playing a new game or the next console comes out. I'm starting to think that the "dream rig" is similar to computer games. I'm spending hours tweaking and getting to know it and ultimately for what? The technology is sure to be updated in the near future and that time in "skill acquisition" will probably be wasted, particularly if I move away from Line 6. At least time spent getting to know traditional tube amp is transferable to similar analogue units...and that will always be the case as classic amps will never go out of fashion." When I talk about the dream rig I mean podHD + DT amp minus Variax guitar as I've stayed clear of them so far. Basically, what I'm finding with this rig is that it can be quite glitchy in terms of volume and patch settings, particularly when moving from a "full" patch to a "pre" patch in full power mode with tubes engaged. I've spent obscene amounts of time tweaking and setting up the modelling software parameters. Its was a kick in the teeth when I did this for home/ low volume use and then found a whole new set of patches would be required in full power mode, essentially equivalent to a seperate and loosely related rig. I've even attempted at one point to simplify the situation by setting up one set of patches in pre amp mode with a power attenuator and thhe DT25 always in full power mode (in theory allowing the only "tweak" to be reduced attenuation via the THD hotplate as I move from home to stage). The result? Still too loud for home use at levels of attenuation that maintain the amps tone quality.At -12db attenuation and beyond I may as well be using a Spider amp or similar small modelling combo. The idea that there would be a seamless transition from home to studio to jam session to live tone with this rig (my perception in the beginning) has gone right out of the window. I am faced with layers and layers of complexity in each situation. The result? Less time actually playing and enjoying my guitars. More time acheiving a stiff neck stooping forward over my laptop tweaking software parameters. And as per my quote above....what am I gaining in terms of skill aquisition? The ability to tweak software which will be dated in a couple of years. As per my thread above, there doesnt even seem to be any great advantage in tone. I'm starting to hanker after a situation where I can sit, laptop switched off, playing guitar at home with a quality low wattage tube amp. Clean to crunch to high gain with the sweep of an analogue knob on the amps control panel. Volume adjusted within the remit of the amp (+/- in built power atenuation as the DT25 should have had). Gaining lasting, transferable skill with an analogue tube amp that won't ever be technologically "out of date" or go out of fashion....will last a lifetime. And actually concentrating on playing the guitar.... As I say in that previous thread, I fear the DT25 will ultimately be seen as an early prototype amp in terms of a tube amp/ digital interface that works in every situation. The versatility and accuracy of the patch system is the big selling point here....but that veratility just isn't there when taking the amp from one situation to the next. The investment of time and aquisition of tecnological knowledge that will soon be outdated detracts from enjoying my instruments.

After 2 years experience with a DT25, first with an HD300 and now an HD500x, I'm not sure I agree with this. See my recent thread here: http://line6.com/support/topic/3229-podhd500x-alone-sounds-better-than-my-dt25-in-full-power-mode/. Its a sign of how excellent the podHD modelling is (and mabye that the DT25 amp as a standalone tube amp isn't top of the league) but I prefer the all digital tones I get from this rig.

If you use DT edit (free 3rd party software) via a midi connection you can view and edit all preamp optiions including cab/mic settings in the DT amp. This can therefore be done on a laptop completely independently of a podHD. I've kept Channel A as per factory settings. From factory Channel B banks 1-4 are identical but I've edited it via this software to include a Deluxe, JCM800 and others.

Very interesting geppert, thanks. Of course, using the rig in this way massively reduces its versatility and essentially renders it a more old school 2 channel amp. I guess if you only ever use two preamps then that works as you get the benefit of a more traditional "interface" between guitarist and amp. I'm sure many would say it defeats the purpose of the DT25 and they would probably be right.... I guess you'd still have 3 unused preamp banks per channel though. You could presumably go from 1 to 2, 3, 4 within channel A or B respectively by hand? I've got a funny feeling that that would work fine without the pod connected but start getting glitchy with it connected. I played live once without the pod and prior to that updated the amp via midi and DT edit (excellent 3rd party software) so that I had different amps in channel sets A and B. It was ok. Btw, master and volume maxed out...that sucker must be loud! Philosophically, I've stopped playing computer games as I feel the time invested in acquisition of guitar skill is much better spent. It's cross transferable and will last forever. Skill on a computer game is often only useful until you start playing a new game or the next console comes out. I'm starting to think that the "dream rig" is similar to computer games. I'm spending hours tweaking and getting to know it and ultimately for what? The technology is sure to be updated in the near future and that time in "skill acquisition" will probably be wasted, particularly if I move away from Line 6. At least time spent getting to know traditional tube amp is transferable to similar analogue units...and that will always be the case as classic amps will never go out of fashion. In the meantime I'm playing guitar less and leaning over to adjust software parameters in my laptop...

Sorry for replying to my own post but...I guess an alternative option would be set the podHD up in effects only mode as a pedal board in front of the DT25 in full volume mode and use "patches" only for effects set ups. I could simply load the most common amps into the 4/8 channels (almost exclusively fender deluxe, jtm45, jcm800 and mesa boogie) and do all the tweaking from the amp itself to suit venue and volume..... Would probably make the tweaking a bit more simple and "traditional". I guess once id stumbled on workable volume and EQ settings from the amp I could attempt to configure them into a pre amp patch on the pod (sure to fail but worth trying!).

That might indeed be an option, thanks, although it kind of defeats the purpose of this rig and its supposed advantages. As I say above (after editing my post a couple of times) "it would be simpler (if possibly a bit less versatile overall) to set up a traditional single channel analogue tube amp +/- the pod as an effects only pedal board!! I'd probably play guitar more than fiddle with settings for a change. And I dare say the "tube" tone might be better too." Im seriously considering keeping the podHD and getting a better (dare I say it "proper") tube amp for use with or without the pod.

I guess you guys are probably right about keeping the DT25...certainly no point in buying an Lt2 when I've essentially got a PA in the DT amp when in LVM. If the podHD wasn't such an amazing quiet practice tool I might regret starting on the long and overly complex road with this rig... The pod + DT combination with all its modes and permutations is far too complicated and temperamental- at the end of the day it detracts from playing guitar! I'm not sure that the versatility and "loud" tones offered by this rig justify its complexity, learning curve and expense over simpler tube amp rigs with good inbuilt or external power attenuation. I guess I was drawn in by the idea of patches and community sharing etc after liking the podfarm software a few years back..... However, I suspect my "loud" tone would be better with a quality/ traditional tube amp. Mabye even better direct from pod to monitor speakers (home) or PA (live, rarely) without all the volume imbalance hitches that seem to arise with a pod to DT amp connection. Whatever I do I'll keep the podHD for home use- an amazing piece of kit for that application at least. I think in a few years time hybrid amps will have moved on and integration with digital interfaces will be more seamless. We will look back and see the DT as an early prototype rather than a classic "amp for life".... I guess what I'm concluding after 2 years experience with this kit is that podHD modelling is now so good that a hybrid tube amp (of the DTs quality) actually sounds no better with tubes cranked than the pure digital sound from the modeller. That digital sound does not therefore require an amp and would be just as good through speakers or a PA. This is especially so when the digital source + hybrid amp combination is so glitchy and requires (despite first appearances) a re-tweak at every volume level.... as would a better quality traditional tube rig. The complexity and price might all be worth it if it all worked as I thought it would- one set of well crafted patches that sound good at home and can be played unchanged through a hybrid tube amp with nothing more than enhanced tone quality due to the tube effect. Alas that isnt the case and the podHD + DT amp comination might as well be a completely unrelated rig in comparison to my studio setup podHD. In fact it would be simpler (if possibly a bit less versatile overall) to set up a single channel analogue tube amp/ combo with the pod as an effects only pedal board!! I'd probably play guitar more than fiddle with settings for a change. And I dare say the "tube" tone might be better too.

So in the unlikely event that LVM isn't loud enough and I switch to full volume mode on the DT25 with my full amp patches...what's actually happening?! When I last trawled these forums months ago there was no clear consensus on this. Seems ridiculous but I don't want those tubes spoiling my tone or causing weird volume problems between patches! That's something I didn't mention above- the full patches can all be the same volume direct from the pod but in full power mode one is ridiculously quiet while the next shatters the windows! At least this must all say a lot for the quality of the podHDs modelling.

I read this thread with interest and started a reply based on my experience as a podHD500x and DT25 owner. However, I've decided to start it all as a fresh thread as its kind of a new question. Still very relevant to this thread though as its to do with playing live via a DT25 amp (one of the many options). If you guys are interested its here: http://line6.com/support/topic/3229-podhd500x-via-my-dt25-vs-pa-lt2-vs-alternative-tube-amp/?p=21128