tinorios

Good explanation, cruisinon2.

With all due respect, you missed the point.

Sorry Siverhead. I didn't mean anything personal. I'm not seeking a general answer but a specific one related only to this problem with all the qualifications and restrictions that I have tried to state. Your comments are always welcome. I just got in debate mode.

Let me take another crack at this since I can't seem to get it off my mind. All these posts were to lay the ground work to seek answers to three specific questions: 1. Does Line 6 have testing procedures that can recreate and predict which speakers will have the rattle? 2. Does Line 6 have speakers already made that can & could be tested that do not have this rattle and they can send those speakers to customers that need one right away? 3. Or, if no speakers without the rattle are available to swap, will Line 6 refund the money to those select customers that cannot wait for a final fix and are loosing gigs because they lack a functioning system? I may be too dense and have missed these answers if they have already been provided. Also, I do not have this problem so I have not turned in a support case to Line 6. Therefore, I can not report Line 6 answers in this forum to those that are interested in this topic. To my knowledge, no one that has turned in a support case has reported any specific answers. Because of that, I keep asking. I may or may not find answers, but if I do, I reserve the right to ask new questions.

So you mean to tell me that Line 6 makes all this equipment, sends them to retailers and they never give Line 6 any money. Also, in their warranty requirements, Line 6 asks for an original receipt. So, if you buy a used Line 6 product on ebay or Craigslist still within the warranty period, you need the original receipt. I quote below: "This warranty is extended to the original retail purchaser. This warranty can be transferred to anyone who may subsequently purchase this product provided that such transfer is made within the applicable warranty period and Line 6 is provided with the following items: (i) all warranty registration information (as set forth on the registration card) (ii) proof of the transfer within (30) days of the transfer purchase, and (iii) a photocopy of the original sales receipt. Warranty coverage shall be determined by Line 6 in its sole discretion."

What is your policy on refunding money to the persons that cannot wait for the qualified solution?

I was thinking of a one time, special case, because of this rattle, money back to preserve goodwill.

OK, Line 6 doesn’t have to return my money, legally. But does it make business sense to do it? Returning money to me and others would cost Line 6 money. And it is easy to calculate how much. What is not easy to calculate is how much Line 6 is loosing in lost sales. From this thread and the other two threads discussing this rattle, I believe three members specifically stated they were going to buy L2x speakers and decided not to because of this rattle. I believe there were about four members very unhappy with the rattle problem that I believe would have wanted their money back. So, three lost sales vs. four captive, reluctant sales saved in this small sample. So, it looks like Line 6 is ahead. But, is it really? How many non-members, guests, read some of this, didn’t post because they can’t, or don’t want to, and didn’t buy? And what of the risk that a disgruntled customer would write a bad review in Amazon.com, all those music equipment retailers, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. I’m not suggesting or encouraging anyone to do that, but how many lost sales? wouldn’t it be better to reassure us, the customers, that Line 6 will replace a faulty speaker with one that doesn’t rattle if this rattle is only for a batch of speakers and Line 6 has testing procedures that can identify non-rattling speakers. Our that Line 6 will return our money if the rattle occurs and we wish to get our money back? And, that Line 6 will stop selling these speakers until the cure is settled on if Line 6 can’t figure out which speakers rattle if which don’t. I don’t know what’s best for Line 6. Line 6 has to determine what is best in the short term and in the long run. As a Line 6 fanboy, with no apologies offered, I am unsettled by all of this. My StageScape/StageSource system has performed impeccably, above & beyond my expectations. It has survived a torrential downpour and heavy condensation that would have voided my warranty “due to liquid contaminationâ€. I don’t say this to rub it in the face of anyone experiencing this problem, or to incur favor from Line 6, but to imply that I’m trying to be impartial. But, I really can’t be impartial. I really can’t just keep on keeping on because I don’t have a problem with my system. Now. But what about in the future? What about if it was me that had a problem? Can I trust Line 6 to repair the problem quickly, or to refund my money? I don’t know.

If I’m trying to get my money back for speakers with “the†rattle because I cannot wait for a final fix and my time to return the speakers to the retailer has expired, I’m going to have to deal directly with Line 6. So, what is the Line 6 money back guarantee or policy? I couldn’t find it in their (this) website, or in the warranty papers that came with my speakers. Here’s what my warranty papers say, in part: Title: “Line 6 Warranty Information Updated April 2005â€. “Line 6 warrants that your new Line 6 product, when purchased at an authorized Line 6 dealer in the United States of America, shall be free of defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one (1) year from original date of purchase. Please contact your dealer for information on warranty and service outside of the USA. During the warranty period, Line 6 shall, at its sole option, either repair or replace any product that proves to be defective upon inspection by Line 6. Line 6 reserves the right to update any unit for repair and to change or improve the design of the product at any time without notice.†After a few more comments about use of reconditioned parts, who qulifies for the warranty & no warranty by others will be recognized, there is another paragraph that states: “Service & repairs of Line 6 products are to be performed only at the Line 6 factory or a Line 6 authorized service center. Line 6 may require advanced authorization of repairs to authorized service centers. Unauthorized service, repair or modifications will void this warranty.†The warranty information in this website says the StageSource speakers is 36 months, 3 years, not the one year like the paper that came with my speakers says. Money refund is not mentioned, only replacement of parts or complete unit. And, how long to repair? From the Service heading in the Support/Customer Service/Repair Information section: “Repair time can vary from weeks to months depending on the kind of repair and the availability of repair partsâ€. Reading all of this tells me that, I ain’t getting my money back, I ain’t getting my speakers repaired fast, and I better not try fix them myself. Those are the legal requirements to protect Line 6 from lawsuits. But, what about the business and moral considerations to protect Line 6 and it customers? I’ll consider that in my next post.

Suppose that all speakers rattle. For some people it is not a problem because of their application or situation. But for others it is a very big problem leading to cancellation of gigs and loss of potential & actual income. Some users could wait until Line 6 settles on the final fix for the speaker fan rattle. Some users could, with a lot of effort & aggravation, come up with a temporary, stopgap solution to get by until the final fix is available, or go back to their old equipment, also temporarily. But, let’s go to the main point of this post and say that some of us cannot wait until the final fix at some undetermined time in the future. Let’s say I want my money back. What are my options? Most retailers on-line and brick & mortar, have a 30 day money back guarantee. Amazon.com has partial refund, for example, 80% of item’s price if item is in original condition past the return window (of 30 days), 50% of item’s price for items that are damaged, missing parts, not in original condition, or have obvious signs of use for reasons not due to an Amazon.com error. As another example, Musiciansfriend.com has a 45 day return policy. The original free shipping cost is deducted from your refund. Sweetwater.com says return “within a fair amount of time from the shipping date (usually 30 days)â€. The original shipping shipping cost is also deducted from your refund. ZZSounds.com has a 45 days after order is delivered. “In the case of an outright return for refund, we refund the full price of the product, but you are responsible for return shipping on the product you are returning and we do not credit any original shipping charges toward the exchangeâ€. I checked my local store where I bought my mixer and two L3m speakers on December 2012 and their return policy is 30 days return less 10% re-stocking & processing fees. I did not check national retail chains like Guitar Center and Sam Ash because they are not available to me in my remote location. These examples suffice to determine that for anything longer than about a month and a half, I will have to deal directly with Line 6 to get my money back. I will investigate that in my next post.

Suppose that some speakers rattle and some don’t. And that a test is available that can determine which speakers rattle and which don’t conclusively & objectively. And by rattle I mean “the†rattle. The objectionable, performance killing rattle that we’ve been discussing in this and other threads. Not just any kind of rattle. It seems to me that if speakers could be tested to separate the ones that rattle from the ones that don’t, the ones that don’t could be sent to customers that have speakers that do rattle without going thru this trial and error, mainly error, of returning speakers, sometimes multiple times, back and forth, until the person gives up returning speakers, or the person gets lucky & receives a good speaker. This takes an enourmous amount of time, effort and money. Not just on the individual, but on the retailer or manufacturer, depending on who gets the faulty speaker. The only people that benefit from this unproductive & wasteful back and forth are the shipping companies that get paid both ways, back, and forth. This testing of speakers to determine which ones don’t rattle to replace rattling speakers to customers that are trying to swap theirs would work if not all speakers rattle. If the rattle is present in all recently manufactured speakers, then there would be new speakers without the rattle to send to customers once all the “oldâ€, non-rattling speakers are used up. This leads me to my next question in my next post.

While checking in the internet searching on different speaker manufacturers name and the word “rattleâ€, I came across a website, Music Player Network, that had several forums. In one of them, a keyboard forum, a forum moderator started a topic on the “Line 6 Stage Source L2t†last July 2013. And, the rattle problem came up in this forum in January 2014. On the 1st of February, one J.Dan suggested an interesting test. I copied it below: “I’m not denying that you’re experiencing what you are, but I’m guessing others don’t have the same applications that cause the phenomenon. Specifically, it is probably some resonant frequency. There’s one way to determine whether it’s a change in manufacturing, or a difference in application. Do you have any kind of sweepable frequency generator? Like, where you can set a sine wave to a specific amplitude, and sweep the frequency and say “the buzz occurs between X Hz and Y Hz at a level of Zâ€? Then people could replicate the test and see if it’s all L2t’s or recent ones. That would be valuable info. I know most people don’t have that kind of equipment, but if you know any body who has anything that you could borrow, that would be very useful informationâ€> Well, I have an app for that! And I decided to do the test on my L3m’s. I set up my speakers like they’re normally used, as a PA system. The L3s subwoofer on bottom in the “tall†position, with its longest side vertically, the long Line 6 pole threaded in the single female thread connector on the top of the L3s speaker, and the L3m on top. Two sets of speakers in my 20’ x 16’ )6m x 4.88m) Living Room with the speakers about 10’ (3m) apart along the long (north) wall. Everything was connected with Line 6 brand L6 link cable to the M20d mixer. I used my iPod Touch (although the iPad would have worked just as well) using Studio Six Digital Audio Tools app with the Signal Generated selected in the Utilities section. I connected the iPod to the Aux input of the M20d mixer with a cable with 1/8†(3.5mm) connectors. I set the level in the Aux channel to zero, the level on the outputs just below zero and the level in the signal generator app to about 3/4 of max. The speaker knobs were all set at 12 o’clock position like recommended in other threads in this forum. I set the signal generator to sine wave (it also does square wave, white & pink noise), to “fine†setting (it also does full & 1/3 octave), and output mode to Mono (it also does left, right and balanced). Then, I turned off Mute & started the test. I didn’t get any rattles until around 80 Hz, getting worse around 83 Hz. I couldn’t find what was rattling for a while until I finally figured out it was coming from inside the fireplace chimney. I kept increasing the frequency until around 98 Hz another rattle. This one ended up being one of the two windows on the west wall of the room. Kept increasing frequency until the next rattle, a turntable behind me at the mixer at 129 Hz. The turntable rattled again at 195 Hz and 210 Hz. Then, no more rattles. I stopped around 800 Hz because my ears were getting tired. Throughout the test, I kept going back behind the speakers to feel the back metal plate where all the connections are & where the fan might be. Pressing against the plate would not change the sound so I took that to mean that my speakers are not rattling. At least not with this set up. Now, if it can be established conclusively that some speakers rattle and some don’t, this raises a question that I will ask in my next post.

Thank you for your clear reply. My Line 6 speakers are working well for my application so I'm going to keep on keeping on!

Thank you for your reply. It is now clear to me. I would like to hear from those suffering with speaker rattles how the company resolved your problem, right now, before the final fix. Everything I have read about Line 6 support in this forum has been positive and I would hope that will continue with this particular problem. If enough persons post their experience for how their problem was resolved, we might be able to figure out what the Line 6 policy is regarding this unfortunate issue. Still, a clear corporate statement might have saved a lot of agony on the part of those experiencing this problem. In the deleted thread, one could not an increasing level of desperation that could have been avoided had the company been more forthright. Maybe this experience will be a motivating factor for better performance in the future. There's no need to let people suffer emotional and financial loss. Basically, that's the point I'm trying to make. I hope I'm clear on it.

Say you are a customer with speakers with this rattling problem, you are losing gigs because of this problem and you cannot wait for a final solution which at this time is TBD. What can this customer do, or what will Line 6 do for this category of user, right now? Can the customer return the noisy speakers for a full refund? Is the company capable of testing speakers to determine which ones rattle and which ones don't? Can the company replace the speakers that rattle with speakers that don't rattle right now? Just curious. My speakers don't rattle but it is not clear from all these posts, present and missing ones, what alternatives are available right now.