Output block level effects tone!!??

[imaroy]

Hi guys, I've had Helix for around 3 weeks and love it. I set my tones up with one of my bands powered monitors and was very happy with it. Had a couple of gigs since and noticed the FOH sound was very bright and "hard" sounding.

 

I took one of the FOH speakers home which is a Yamaha DXS12 to have play and adjust eqs etc... I became frustrated and still found the sound hard and lacking tube warmth... I soon found out that I'd set my output blocks on my preset to -3.5 (can't remember why i did this) and decided to increase the level and as I did all of the lush warmth came back. It's as if the Yamaha DXS12 received the signal from the helix in a clearer less coloured singal as opposed to the powered monitor... Is there any science behind this??

[HonestOpinion]

Hi guys, I've had Helix for around 3 weeks and love it. I set my tones up with one of my bands powered monitors and was very happy with it. Had a couple of gigs since and noticed the FOH sound was very bright and "hard" sounding.

 

I took one of the FOH speakers home which is a Yamaha DXS12 to have play and adjust eqs etc... I became frustrated and still found the sound hard and lacking tube warmth... I soon found out that I'd set my output blocks on my preset to -3.5 (can't remember why i did this) and decided to increase the level and as I did all of the lush warmth came back. It's as if the Yamaha DXS12 received the signal from the helix in a clearer less coloured singal as opposed to the powered monitor... Is there any science behind this??

It may essentially have been a problem akin to not having unity gain or adequate gain at the FOH due to your attenuated output block on the Helix. It sounds like your FOH may simply have not been getting an ideal level of signal. This would impact tone adversely and would not necessarily be the result of a significant change in the tone coming from the attenuated output block on the Helix. In other words, it was the interaction between your mixer/speakers and the level of the signal coming from the Helix rather than a substantial change in tone originating at the Helix. And of course there is always the Fletcher-Munson curve out there which reflects the interaction between volume and perceived sound.

[imaroy]

Much thanks for the reply, going to try again tonight to make sure it wasn't my ears getting tired.

 

An additional note, I run my Helix at Mic level as feels more dynamic whereas line level seems to sort of compress when picking soft to hard... I know that goes against the manual and recommendations but it just souds better to me.

 

Yes the speaker was set to mic level. Master Knob around 12 and I'm using an American strat.

[DunedinDragon]

This is very curious.  The DXS12 is a subwoofer.  Are you sure you weren't using a DXR12 main speaker?

[PeterHamm]

Master output should, imho, always be set to full if you can, then dial back the volume where you need to on the amp/speaker.

[imaroy]

Sorry I meant the DXR12.

 

However since tinkering further, I found that I got a better sound from the 1/4" jack set at an instrument as opposed to XLR at mic.

 

Yamaha set to receive at Mic level....it however sound better with XLR line to line but not as good as 1/4" jack instrument.

 

 

So it as it stands, the best sound I get is from the 1/4" out at instrument level into a Yamaha monitor set to mic level (albeit that doesn't come into play as that only effects the xlr input) .... but when comparing with my studio headphones and studio monitor both of which sound pretty much the same, the Yamaha DXR12 definitely sound a lot different but I'm guessing that is something to do with it being a PA system speaker and the nature of the eq of the speaker maybe amplifying certain frequencies which are prob more tailored towards vocals.

 

At this stage, I'm guessing your going to tell me to either get FFFR speakers (like the line 6 and run them as a PA speakers to FOH) or I'm going to have to either tweak the global eq or eq on the mixing desk to try and smooth out??

[rvroberts]

I find using my Helix so far.............and we are all constantly experimenting - its both great and a curse from time to time! - that the big secret to getting a great sound out of PA style speakers (and I suspect any FRFR type of setup) is to have a global EQ that makes what you send fit into the frequency response of what might be expected from a mic'ed guitar amp.  So I'm quiet drastically killing bottom and high end - I actually kill anything above 10K. Even 8K depending on the box - big horn = kill more high frequencies.  This despite using IRs.  And on the IRs I'm even more extreme - often setting a roll off at like 5.9K.  For me this gets rid of all the harsh highs that make distortion sound bad.  It still lets through nice glassy Strat sounds.  Be interested to hear other people's experiences.

Regarding levels - I'm going out at line level and into my boxes at line level.  I find I can get a great sound with careful tweaking of EQ out of most PA type speakers and am using Behringer boxes and getting a great sound - it make me wonder how much of the highend FRFR boxes (none of which are anywhere I can try them!) is just starting with a more instrument friendly response?  Obviously not having crossover issues to a horn would help.  Seriously - the minute you kill all the low end and harsh highs you are in the ball park.  IR's are not the solution on their own - when was the last time you were in a studio with a SM57 on a box straight into the desk without the kind of EQ I'm describing?