Helix Global EQ vs 31 Band EQ and other FRFR Thoughts

[roscoe5]

Going off of a lot of forum advice to change mentality from traditional guitar amp/cab to studio/PA sound engineering for an FRFR transition. So I'm trying to bring myself up to speed on understanding EQ usage and flattening out an FRFR rig (or PA).

 

I've read a lot of posts on the Helix Global EQ (parametric and high/low cut type)and some suggested settings. I have adjusted it myself using just an RTA phone app and gotten some pretty good results. I think I am getting a grasp of some of the fundamentals.

 

However, when you research traditional methods of EQ'ing for flattening a PA or studio, it seems a 31 band eq with some RTA auto-eq algorithms and an RTA mic are used. This also aligns with my RTA app and it's 31 band analysis capability. I'm wondering if a 31 band Helix Global EQ option would be useful. It seems to be industry standard.

 

http://www.waves.com/plugins/geq-graphic-equalizer#geq-graphic-equalizer-overview

 

http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/Equalizers/DEQ2496/p/P0146

 

http://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/driverack-pa2

 

I post this as I am considering a Mission Gemini 2 passive speaker with separate Matrix GT800FX power amp, and maybe 1U eq like the dbx DriveRack EQ or the Behringer DEQ 2496 if I cant all the needed eq with Helix. I can get all three for about the cost of a Mission powered Gemini 2 and have a much more flexible, repairable, possibly better quality / sound modular rig. I could also have room eq presets for different clubs / venues I play regularly, for both guitar and bass.

 

http://usa.matrixamplification.com/rack-amplifers/gt-800-fx.html

 

http://missionengineering.com/?product=gemini-2-p

 

I don't really care for having the power amp integral with the cab. Every time I walk into my local music store I walk past the repair dept with tons of powered speakers with their amps and/or speakers pulled. Not that this rig couldn't fail too, but I have other backups of each type of component.

 

FRFR is a big investment for me at about $1500+. Trying to get the biggest bang for my buck, as well as longest life cycle, best sound, most flexibility, etc.

 

Anyway, I really appreciate the input all of the experienced and technical users in this group and thought some of you would have some expertise in the area.

[roscoe5]

I was thinking I could route the output of Helix through an eq/RTA plug in then to the Helix outputs just to compare Helix Global EQ with a 31 band to see if the extra piece of rack gear is even worth it. I'll probably pick up a reference mic for fun and learning.

[zooey]

It would be somewhere between hard and impossible to replicate a 31-band curve generated by an RTA using a 4 band parametric w hi- and low-cut filters. You just don't have enough points of control, even if individually the controls you do have can be very specific. That's one of the reasons I've been slow to try the IK ARC thing on my FRFRs -- what am I going to actually do with that result?

 

I think the big reason 31-bands are prevalent for RTA and PA use is that the controls effectively double as a readout of the resulting curve. A parametric is way more abstract, especially if the bands overlap at all.

 

If you IdeaScale a 31-band (might as well be available both for global and as a block), I'll vote it up.

[roscoe5]

Went ahead and submitted on IdeaScale.

 

Helix 31 Band Global EQ Option

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/31-Band-Global-EQ-Option/831633-23508?submitted=1

 

FYI, I did some research on DSP in powered speakers and separate amps. The Carvin DCM X-Drive amps were the only ones I could find with a 31 band eq in their DSP. I made a separate post on those with their 12" coax bi-ampable monitors as a potential FRFR rig.

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/21784-carvin-dcm2004lx-and-trx12n-for-frfr-rig/

[mlwinnig]

Thanks for submitting this suggestion! 

 

EDIT: WAVES HAS IT!  I'LL BITE!

 

When I was doing live sound (70's - 2000's) we lived and died with analogs. End of that era I had a DEQ2496 and a Feedback Destroyer in my "personal gig box" (along with a dbx compressor or 2) which I would insert into the "house PA" (whether they liked it or not!)  Even had a Sure RTA and calibrated mic setup in the 70's, back when I could get away with feeding noise (white or pink) through a PA well in advance of live show(s).

 

Started TRYING to play bass a while back. Quickly moved to a Helix Floor and FRFR setup. Now have an Akai MPCX SE and MPK 249 midi kbd mpc gizmo and now Helix Native (for MPC and Abelton Live 12 Lite).  While I have not yet explored the multi-EQ SW I long for a 31!  Please weigh in on "phasing issue" as I don't fully get it.  EDIT: Looks like user's choice in WAVES!

 

BUT WHAT STRIKES ME IS THIS... If we have, "need"? tools to add noise, flutter, clicks, pops, make low-fi (tape, vinyl, radio / car speaker etc. emulations) what harm could a little 31-band EQ "phasing" do?  Perhaps that will prove to be the best way to get that analog sound of old many (myself for sure!) long for!  

 

For a while I used to run a PA with "Thunderguppies" (homemade clones of Cerwin Vega Earthquake "Bottoms" folded horns. Worth a google). Those and EV Sentry 3 Series 2's were the ship back in the day.

 

+1 on 31-bands!  Better yet...  H E double hockey sticks yeah!

Edited August 6, 2024 by mlwinnig
Typos and new info

[datacommando]

On 8/6/2024 at 2:17 AM, mlwinnig said:

BUT WHAT STRIKES ME IS THIS...

You have posted your comment about 8 years too late!

 

IdeaScale or not, I guess this never got enough traction to be implemented.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[craiganderton]

31-band EQs are used primarily in studio and fixed installation room tunings. If you want to go to that level of detail, more power to you! But in reality, there are really only two ranges that are going to cause problems with guitar: Bass frequencies, especially in small rooms, and high frequencies, where hard/soft acoustic surfaces affect frequency response.

 

If you're trying to flatten a PA that's reproducing a band's frequencies from bass to cymbals, that's a lot more critical than guitar, which is pretty much a midrange instrument. Cabs (and virtual cabs in presets) shave off everything over 5 to 10 kHz or so, and guitars don't generate much low frequency energy.

 

Granted, there may be resonances in a room that you'd want to tune out. These will be different in every venue. So, record your guitar on your smartphone, play it back through the FRFR system, walk about the venue, and listen for whether there are any nasty resonances. If they exist, one or two parametric stages should be able to take care of those. Low-shelf and high-shelf EQ can likely handle anything that sounds wrong in the low and high frequencies.

 

While I admire/respect people who pursue perfection, I recommend being careful not to overthink things. The sound will be different in different parts of a venue, and you can't make the sound equally good everywhere. Also, consider that if it's winter and everyone walks in with jackets but then they get hot and decide it's worth paying for the coat check anyway, the high frequencies will change as the surfaces become less soft. As with so many aspects of sound reproduction, all you can really try to do is deliver the best sound to the greatest number of people that you can. 

 

I'd also add I'm not saying I'm "right," so you should ALWAYS find out what sounds best for you. All I'm saying is that it's not too hard to take a system from 0% to 90% of its potential...but trying to achieve that last 10% can drive you crazy :) 

 

 

[mlwinnig]

Thank you as always, Craig.

 

I don't disagree with most of what you say. And no doubt my experience doing live sound in a wide range of venues (working for the band or sound company) and for a wide range of bands (when working for a fixed venue)  colors my perspective. 

 

And my "Acoustics 101" lesson #1 is: "The room is a box" and "everything that goes in the box stays in the box!"

 

And yes. Our guests / patrons are warm bags of water and as they come and go and how they are dressed clearly matters.

 

While I am trying to learn the MPC platform, to try to create something musical (not just with a bass) I am also fine-tuning my system. Of course, FRFR does NOT mean "no EQ needed."  Human hearing, audio sources (difficulty reproducing certain frequencies, etc.) normally pushes me to boost the bottom and top, cut the middle and then fine tune the rest. 10 or 31 bands just work well for that, for me.

 

I did try the Air 4-band PEQ and was able to get satisfactory results - for a bit!

 

For under $30 the Waves 31-Graphic with both "Classic" and minimal artifacts modes looks like way to much fun for me to pass up.

 

Stay tuned if you care for an update!

 

 

 

 

On 8/3/2024 at 1:03 AM, craiganderton said:

Few marketing blurbs differentiate between Machine Learning and Artificial Intelligence, so it's hard to know exactly what they're doing. For example:

 

• Machine Learning could go through all the presets you use in live performance and balance their levels. It would "learn" what level each preset uses, compare them, and edit them for the same perceived value.
• Artificial Intelligence could go through all the presets you use in live performance, and generate new presets which meet the same general criteria as what you seem to like. 

 

Companies are finding out that AI isn't generating much $$ yet, and there are also legal issues involved. AI has much potential -  I used it to generate two recent book covers. It could also be tremendously helpful in reducing repetitive work in the studio. But, so far, practical applications for music that truly use artificial intelligence don't seem to be very common. 

 

Presonally, I'm a fan of artificial stupidity. Some of my best sounds come from making mistakes and thinking "y'know, that actually sounds kind of cool."

 

 

 

[craiganderton]

On 8/10/2024 at 10:21 PM, mlwinnig said:

For under $30 the Waves 31-Graphic with both "Classic" and minimal artifacts modes looks like way to much fun for me to pass up.

 

The Waves Graphic EQ is highly underrated, especially the "modern" option. I think people tend to dismiss it as "oh, a graphic equalizer." They probably should have called it a "customizable multiband frequency AI engine," LOL.

 

On 8/10/2024 at 10:21 PM, mlwinnig said:

And my "Acoustics 101" lesson #1 is: "The room is a box" and "everything that goes in the box stays in the box!"

 

That's a really, really good line!

[mlwinnig]

:)

 

Just waiting for a little spare time and spare cash and I will pull the trigger on the Waves AI EQ!

 

Thanks for the "feedback!"