what am i doing wrong? (m13, isp, fx loop)

[iuJacob]

first off, hello everyone!

 

apologies in advance for the wall of text.

 

after many a struggle with this, i'm in need of assistance.

perhaps there is something very simple that i'm doing wrong.

 

i have an older three channel dual rec (which i have modded the parallel fx loop into a serial), 

and for the life of me i cannot get this hooked up right.

 

currently signal chain is going 

 

guitar -> tu2 tuner -> isp decimator g string gtr in -> gtr out -> m13 input -> m13 output -> g string in -> g string out -> amp loop fx return

 

m13 fx send -> ego comp -> oc2 -> octafuzz -> pharaoh fuzz -> syb 5 -> wah -> amp input

 

amp fx loop send -> m13 fx return

 

i should also mention that i have the m13 to 'post fx 1'... (i assume i am using this correctly)

i run all the synthy stuff and other crazy effects on the first row.

the last three rows are reserved for modulation, delays, verbs, etc etc.

delays and verbs are generally around 50-80% mix level, depending.

 

i'm getting tons of noise. i have to set the threshold on the decimator to the point where verbs/delays are completely cut off and useless.

when playing at lower levels (with the threshold lower and playing through an attenuator), i'm still getting that ...hollow sounding just-about-to-feedback sound.

 

i've tried running the m13 AFTER the decimator in the loop (just as an experiment, i read it on a different forum), but that causes serious feedback at even normal playing levels. 

 

 

what am i doing wrong? or is this just the nature of the beast?

or, do i need to run another noise reduction pedal between the wah and the front of the amp?

 

 

EDIT: also noticing that the looper is also affected by the decimator. it seems to consider it noise.

         also, if i turn any of the other effects on (for example the oc2, which is not in the loop), it puts the effect on the loop as well as my guitar.

          surely, this must be wrong?

Edited October 3, 2016 by iuJacob

[ColonelForbin]

Here is what I *think* you are going for - (I've also got the Decimator G-string..)

 

guitar -> tu2 tuner -> isp decimator g string gtr in -> gtr out -> m13 input -> m13 fx send -> ego comp -> oc2 -> octafuzz -> pharaoh fuzz -> syb 5 -> wah -> amp input > amp fx loop send -> g string DEC in -> g string DEC out ->  m13 fx return -> m13 output > amp loop fx return

 

The Decimator g-string guitar input 'tracks' your playing, so you had that set in the right spot. However, I think the error was placing the M13 main output after the M13 input; that should be the M13 fx send, into your pre-amp FX, into your amp. Then, amp FX loop into the 'DEC' in on the Decimator - that is where the noise gate is actually occuring, which you would want before the M13 mod/delay/reverbs. then Decimator "DEC" out to M13 FX return, and then finally, M13 main out to Amp fx return.

 

For what it's worth, I actually really like the noise gate built into the M13! Not as an effect block, but the noise gate in the setup menu, in the MIDI /Gate / Display page - but since you are using the Decimator, you would want to disable the M13 noise gate by turning it fully counter clockwise:

 

Gate - Think of the Gate as a special additional pedal that applies to each scene. There is no footswitch control for this effect so only use it when you always want the gate engaged. THRESH (upper middle) sets the threshold of the gate, turn this knob fully counter clockwise to bypass the noise gate. DECAY (lower middle) adjusts the decay of your noise gate.

 

 

Cheers!

[ColonelForbin]

Once you get that sorted out, a couple other tips I can offer that have MAJORLY enhanced the use of my M9 for me - I use it in amp fx loop only, for mod/delay/chorus - are the following two things.

 

1.) get one or two expression pedals to go with your M13. I use the Mission L6 exp pedals, but the L6 brand exp pedals are fine too and cost much less. This opens up TONS of cool options that you cannot get just toggling fx on and off. I use it to vary the reverb mix, delay repeats, pitch shifting, Q of the mutron, all sorts of stuff. It's AMAZING how cool the M series gear becomes once you add expression pedals. 

 

2.) I recently picked up a Disaster Area DMC-XL3 'gen2' MIDI controller. It's a small three button MIDI box that interfaces with the M-series (M5, M9, M13). The gen3 is out now which adds additional function, and there is a four button option. This is a game changer for me with an M9! In the simplest manner, it allows you to scroll between the 24 different 'scenes' available using the left and right buttons, and bypass all FX with the center button. I know the M13 has a bit more functionality with button access to scenes and looper, so this won't do as much for you as it did for me with the M9, but it's still a definite bonus, since you could set it up as dedicated scene change, looper controls, etc.

 

Between those two, for you, get the expression pedals first! For anyone with the M9, definitely look into outboard MIDI...24 scenes!!!! AND being able to bypass ALL the fx with one button - also cool. You can bypass all the fx, scroll to a new 'scene' then un-bypass all the FX.. I am totally stoked to program a ton of new FX scenes for my M9; one button scroll between scenes? yes please! :)

 

Cheers!

 

p.s. Morningstar MC6 is another more robust MIDI option - fully programmable!

 

http://www.morningstarfx.com/

[iuJacob]

thank you for your response! I've asked a few different places, you're the only person to reply.

 

I will try this today, and give an update.

 

(As you can see from my initial post, I was thinking of it as two separate chains.... your routing seems more or less like one continuous chain.... (if that makes sense))

 

I'm mostly pretty terrible at this side of musicianship. so thank you again!

 

(Good to know about the less expensive Line 6 expression pedal. For some reason I was under the impression that that one wasn't compatible with the M series)

[ColonelForbin]

(As you can see from my initial post, I was thinking of it as two separate chains.... your routing seems more or less like one continuous chain.... (if that makes sense))

 

 

I believe with the way I described you will get the two separate chains; that divide is based on where you tell the M13 you are placing the FX loop. It's the classic four-cable method! For reference, take a look at page 9-10 of the M13 manual, they actually describe this kind of setup and include a diagram.

 

guitar -> tu2 tuner -> isp decimator g string gtr in -> gtr out -> m13 input -> m13 fx send -> ego comp -> oc2 -> octafuzz -> pharaoh fuzz -> syb 5 -> wah -> amp input > amp fx loop send -> g string DEC in -> g string DEC out ->  m13 fx return -> m13 output > amp loop fx return

 

Keep in mind that the GTR in and out on the Decimator is doing input tracking ONLY - the noise gate doesn't get applied until the DEC in and out circuit. 

Here's a slightly different option; place your outboard FX before the M13 row 1 effects:

 

OPTION 2: OUTBOARD FX BEFORE M13 ROW 1:

guitar > tu2 tuner > isp decimator 'gtr in'/out > ego comp -> oc2 -> octafuzz -> pharaoh fuzz -> syb 5 -> wah > M13 input > M13 row 1 FX > M13 FX send > amp

 

By routing your signal out the M13 FX send, you are then sending ONLY the outboard FX and the M13 row one FX to the front of your amp.

 

Then:

 

Amp FX Send > Decimator DEC in/out > M13 FX return > M13 row 2,3,4 FX (mod,delay,verb) > M13 MAIN OUT > Amp FX return.

 

By routing the amp fx send to the decimator noise gate, you clean up any hiss or noise that is being generated up to this point. Then that signal goes to the M13 FX return, which routes into M13 FX row 2,3,and 4. Then, the M13 main out sends only that signal of rows 2,3,4 to the amp FX return, which is the ideal placement for the M13 mods, delays and reverbs. Since the outboard FX and M13 row FX are routed out the M13 FX send, they are NOT passed on to the M13 main out until they are sent back to the M13 FX return, after going through your amps preamp.

 

Essentially, the two chains are:

 

1.) guitar > decimator input tracking > outboard fx > M13 row1 FX > amp front input >

 

and

 

2.) amp fx send > decimator noise gate > m13 rows 2,3,4 FX > amp fx return

 

Cheers! :)

[ColonelForbin]

(Good to know about the less expensive Line 6 expression pedal. For some reason I was under the impression that that one wasn't compatible with the M series)

 

I think so! I don't have one so can't test it.. Here's the list from the old forum, I would guess this is more or less accurate

 

Compatible:

 

Ernie Ball VP Jr 25k ohm (log pot)

 

Line 6 EX-1

 

Roland EV-5

 

Boss FV-500L

 

Boss FV-500H

 

 

 

Not Compatible:

 

Yamaha  FC-7

 

Ernie Ball VP JR Passive 250K & 6166

 

Any wah wah pedal

 

Morley volume Pedals

 

Behringer FCV100

 

M-Audio EXP

 

Rocktron Hex

 

Moog EP-2 (it is possible to swap the internal pot with a 16mm pot, though it might take some fabrication skills. This is not recommended for the inexperienced.)

[iuJacob]

I just want to extend a huge thank you for your help. Sounded so much better. :)

 

I do have one more question. I'm still experiencing the weird issue with the delay on the clean channel. The initial hit of the note/chord is fine, but the repeats following sound awful. The closest thing I could compare it to sounding like... is when a microphone is too hot and just about to feedback. I don't notice this on the other two distorted channels. I've tried playing with the noise gate in the m13, but it doesn't change much. is this an issue with the m13 or my amp?

 

And EQ pedal (in fx loop) would go right before DEC IN, correct?

 

Thank you again