HX Effects Pre-purchase Questions: MIDI Control Of External Pedals

[cmscss]

Hi There,

 

In my mind, controlling external MIDI effects is as simple as saving an external effects block into the HX library which configures the:

• Loop number(s) on/off (or no loop for MIDI only)
• MIDI Channel
• MIDI PC
• MIDI CCs
• Expression Pedal-to-MIDI assignments for controlling external effect parameters

 

For example, you:

• Connect a Meris Enzo to loop 1
• Create/save it's 16 presets as Enzo effects blocks into the HX Effects library
• Do the same for an Ottobit connected to loop 2
• Then recall/use/combine the external effects like any other effect (limited to one per device)

 

But after going through the manual, it seems loop and MIDI control isn't unified into a single effect or isn't saved/used like other effects. e.g. I can't have Enzo patch 1 appear as an effect in the library to be used in Stomp mode. Or I can't create an effect which combines Enzo and Ottobit patches and have that appear in the library to be recalled in Stomp mode.

 

Is that right or am I confused by the manual/videos I've seen? I hope that makes sense and sorry if I'm missing something basic.

 

Cheers

 

Ben

[rd2rk]

Yes, you're confused. So much so that I'm confused by the depth of your confusion!

 

First, there is no "Helix Block Library".

You can save Presets, and you can save configured Blocks to a "Template" Preset  - a simple collection of specific types of blocks saved as a preset.

 

MIDI commands are assigned to a Preset, to specific buttons and/or Snapshots (but not to effects Blocks) using CommandCenter.

You can save a template Preset with all the commands assigned per Snapshot, then use that template for new presets, changing the specific MIDI command details (PC#, CC#,etc) as required for that Preset. But you can't save 16 PC#s to 10 buttons or 8 Snapshots.

 

Here's a scenario:

 

You have a Preset with all the Helix Effects you want to use, plus FX Loops for your Meris effects.

In Snapshot 1 you have your effects ON/OFF in a specific configuration. When the Preset loads it calls Snapshot 1 in which your Enzo FX Loop is ON and Enzo Preset 23 is loaded.

In Snapshot 2 you have your effects ON/OFF in a different configuration. Enzo FX Loop is ON and Enzo Preset 37 is loaded.

In Snapshot 3 you have your effects ON/OFF in a different configuration. Enzo FX Loop is OFF.

etc.

 

But you only have 8 Snapshots, so you can't call 16 Enzo Presets plus OFF in a single Helix Preset.

 

Make sense?

[phil_m]

@rd2rk pretty much explained it, although, he's referencing the Helix, not the HX Effects. They basically work the same way in this regard, although the HX Effects only has two mono loops and four snapshots per preset.

 

As far as controlling the Enzo or other pedals, it's very easy from the HX Effects. To be honest, the MIDI implementation on the Meris pedals is the trickiest thing to deal with. It was the main reason I ended up selling min. I used to have the Mercury7, Polymoon, Ottobit and Enzo. The problem is that they are kind of black boxes when it comes to MIDI. There's no way to tell what preset they're actually on at any given time, and there's no way to what settings are saved with a preset. So it makes programming very tedious. In order to save a preset to certain slot, you have to send the correct PC to them, which becomes kind of weird thing because you have to set up a way to trigger that PC in the HX temporarily... It's just too much. Right now, I use the Strymon TimeLine and Volante with my HX Effects, and those are much easier to deal with from a MIDI perspective - the TimeLine especially. MIDI controllable pedals with no screen or no visual feedback whatsoever are bad idea, imo...

[cmscss]

Thanks guys - very much appreciated but still confused sorry.

 

@rd2rk I thought a patch was a sound made up of effect combinations that can be assigned to a switch in Stomp mode - like your own custom pedal. Or is that true for internal effects only? Or not even true for internal effects?

 

Can you save Presets for external pedals and assign them to switches in Stomp mode or are external sounds only configured using Snapshots? And does that mean you have to configure the same external pedal settings from scratch each time you want to use one?

 

I guess I'm confused because to me, external sounds are used identically to internal sounds. It's the verse, hit a switch, hear the sound - who cares what combination of internal effects, external loops and MIDI us used - right? Is there an advantage to working with external effects differently? Or am I not understanding the terminology. Or am I losing my mind here!

 

 

@phil_m Agreed regarding MIDI on Meris pedals plus there's no volume control making them useless live without blowing ear drums and speakers. I was hoping loop volume could be controlled and saved per patch to counteract this but it seems loop and MIDI settings aren't unified or saved into a patch - is that right?

 

Sorry for the simple questions and the confusion, the result seems very straight forward - save combinations of effects, loops and MIDI to create sounds, then assign sounds to footswitches.

[rd2rk]

26 minutes ago, cmscss said:

Thanks guys - very much appreciated but still confused sorry.

 

@rd2rk I thought a patch was a sound made up of effect combinations that can be assigned to a switch in stomp box mode - like your own custom pedal. Or is that true for internal effects only? Or not even true for internal effects?

 

Can you save presets for external pedals and assign them to switches in stompbox mode or are external sounds only configured using snapshots? And does that mean you have to configure the same external sound settings from scratch each time you want to use one?

 

I guess I'm confused because to me, external sounds are used identically to internal sounds. It's the verse, hit a switch, hear the sound - who cares what combination of internal effects, external loops and MIDI us used - right? Is there an advantage to working with external effects differently? Or am I not understanding the terminology. Or am I losing my mind here!

 

 

@phil_m Agreed regarding MIDI on Meris pedals plus there's no volume control making them useless live without blowing ear drums and speakers. I was hoping loop volume could be controlled and saved per patch to counteract this but it seems loop and MIDI settings aren't unified or saved into a patch - is that right?

 

Sorry for the simple questions and the confusion, the result seems very straight forward - save combinations of effects, loops and MIDI to create sounds, then assign sounds to footswitches.

 

First, let's use the same terminology. Although the terms "patch" and "preset" are often used interchangeably, a patch is a wired connection, a preset is a saved configuration.

 

You can assign an effect block to a stomp button. When you have many effects assigned to stomp buttons, you can recall a specific combination of ON/OFF states with a single button press by using Snapshots.

 

An external device that can save multiple configurations of itself as presets which can be recalled using MIDI PC (program change) numbers can be controlled either by a stomp button assigned to recall a preset, or by snapshots that recall the presets,  by sending a MIDI PC#.

 

When you select a snapshot, the sound output by Helix is a combination of the Helix effects active in the snapshot, and the external effects' configuration recalled by MIDI PC when the snapshot is loaded. Once a snapshot is loaded you can manually change external device's presets using a Stomp button.

 

Summary:

You can not save an external device's sound/configuration on the Helix.

External device's sounds are saved on the external device as presets ON THE EXTERNAL DEVICE.

Those Presets are recalled using MIDI PC#s.

MIDI PC#s can be sent from a Stomp button OR using a Snapshot. You don't necessarily NEED to assign the MIDI command to a stomp button to use it in a Snapshot, you can assign the PC# to an "Instant Command" (IC) which is sent on snapshot load. You only need assign the MIDI PC to a button if you want to change the external device's preset from WITHIN a snapshot (manually after the snapshot loads).

You can PATCH together multiple MIDI controlled external devices on a single FX Loop and send them separate MIDI commands by assigning the devices to separate MIDI Channels.

Do not confuse Audio and MIDI. The audio travels through the signal path, with the external device in the audio FX Loop, connected with PATCH cables.

MIDI is transmitted via MIDI cable independent of the Audio Loop.

 

When I went to the Meris site to see what you were dealing with, TBH I was shocked that the devices had the limitations that phil_m described above. 

I don't care how good they sound, you couldn't GIVE me one of those things.

Sorry, IMHO.

 

I hope my attempt to clarify how this all works is helpful.

 

[rd2rk]

56 minutes ago, cmscss said:

I was hoping loop volume could be controlled and saved per patch to counteract this but it seems loop and MIDI settings aren't unified or saved into a patch - is that right?

 

If you assign the Loop levels to Snapshots, they can be controlled that way. If you have multiple external devices in the loop, it's only the total loop level that can be controlled. Individual device levels would have to be saved in the device's presets.

[cmscss]

@rd2rk Thanks for your time, very much appreciated.

 

Sorry for the confusion, I understand the difference between audio and MIDI, and that HX Effects isn't a librarian. I suspect the manual has confused me because Preset Mode doesn't seem to detail all of the possible settings which can be saved to a preset and suddenly stops on page 14.

 

To clarify, can a preset recall the following with a single switch press?

• Enable multiple internal effects
• Enable/disable multiple effects loops
• Configure loop send/return levels
• Send PCs to select patches on external effects
• Setup expression pedal controller assignments (via MIDI to external effects)

Cheers

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Depends what you mean. Yes, you can assign a CC# to an Exp Pedal for the preset, but snapshots can't change the CC# or VALUE sent.

[cmscss]

14 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

Depends what you mean. Yes, you can assign a CC# to an Exp Pedal for the preset, but snapshots can't change the CC# or VALUE sent.

Not sure I fully understand sorry, you can assign a CC but moving the expression pedal won’t change the value sent to the pedal - is that right?

 

When you say Snapshot, that also applies to a Preset too?

[phil_m]

7 minutes ago, cmscss said:

Not sure I fully understand sorry, you can assign a CC but moving the expression pedal won’t change the value sent to the pedal - is that right?

 

When you say Snapshot, that also applies to a Preset too?

I’m not sure what you’re wanting to do with the expression pedal either, but you can assign a CC to an expression pedal connected to the HX Effects, and that in turn can control something on the external pedal. For instance, I used an expression pedal on the HX to control feedback on the Polymoon. But you could also use the HX Effects’ expression pedal to emulate the expression jack on the Meris pedal. That lets you control more than one parameter at once. 

[rd2rk]

28 minutes ago, cmscss said:

Not sure I fully understand sorry, you can assign a CC but moving the expression pedal won’t change the value sent to the pedal - is that right?

 

When you say Snapshot, that also applies to a Preset too?

 

A Snapshot is simply a variation on the Preset in which it exists.

When you use CommandCenter to assign a CC# and Range to an Exp Pedal, that is a Preset assignment, and the pedal works as expected.

You can't, for instance, have Snapshot 1 assign CC#3 and Snapshot 2 assign CC#17, nor can you use Snapshot 2 to change the Range assigned to the CC#.

[cmscss]

27 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I’m not sure what you’re wanting to do with the expression pedal either, but you can assign a CC to an expression pedal connected to the HX Effects, and that in turn can control something on the external pedal. For instance, I used an expression pedal on the HX to control feedback on the Polymoon. But you could also use the HX Effects’ expression pedal to emulate the expression jack on the Meris pedal. That lets you control more than one parameter at once. 

 

Yes, just use the expression pedal to control say the filter in one preset but modulation in another preset - is that possible?

 

Are Control Center settings per preset or is it global to the HX Effects?

[cmscss]

2 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

A Snapshot is simply a variation on the Preset in which it exists.

When you use CommandCenter to assign a CC# and Range to an Exp Pedal, that is a Preset assignment, and the pedal works as expected.

You can't, for instance, have Snapshot 1 assign CC#3 and Snapshot 2 assign CC#17, nor can you use Snapshot 2 to change the Range assigned to the CC#.

 

Yes, if it was called 'Variations' that would make a lot more sense. Thanks for that.

[phil_m]

3 minutes ago, cmscss said:

 

Yes, just use the expression pedal to control say the filter in one preset but modulation in another preset - is that possible?

 

Are Control Center settings per preset or is it global to the HX Effects?

Yes, that’s possible. The Command Center settings are per preset... Really, in some ways they’re per snapshot, but what you’re talking is pretty simple to set up.

[cmscss]

With snapshots, you make a preset which uses the effects and external MIDI setup you'll need for a song, then use Snapshots to engage certain effects within the preset?

 

The advantage being that all of the MIDI setup is done once for 4 sounds?

 

[rd2rk]

27 minutes ago, cmscss said:

With snapshots, you make a preset which uses the effects and external MIDI setup you'll need for a song, then use Snapshots to engage certain effects within the preset?

 

The advantage being that all of the MIDI setup is done once for 4 sounds?

 

 

Snapshots can be used to control all sort of parameters besides simple ON/OFF, up to 64 parameters in fact, covering most any effect or I/O block parameter in the preset.

Each Stomp button can also control up to 64 parameters, not confined to the parameters of the particular block that it is assigned to bypass.

 

Different MIDI functions are handled in different ways.

 

Suppose that when you load the preset, with snapshot 1 as the default, you want your external effect to be set to it's preset #37.

In snapshot 2 you want it to change to preset #59.

In snapshot 3 you want # 72.

This is done using "Instant Commands" (IC) that transmit on snapshot load. 

When you load the HX preset the default snapshot - the one that was active when the preset was saved - sends it's assigned ICs - up to 8 on up to 16 separate MIDI channels.

If you assign MIDI commands to Stomp buttons, those remain the same in all snapshots, as do Exp pedal assignments.

 

Helix's snapshot and parameter control functions are incredibly powerful and can be used in a near infinite number of ways.

You could continue to ask specific questions until your hands become too old and arthritic to type, much less play guitar.

At this point I'm going to suggest that you take the leap. Buy one from a store with a good return policy.

Much of what we've been talking about will make more sense with the device in hand.

Edited April 26, 2020 by rd2rk
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