Helix in combo with acoustic amp

[aboucher74]

Hi guys,

 

Most of the threads I've read around this topic are either around acoustic IRs for Helix straight into FOH, or people attempting to use an acoustic amp as an FRFR output.  I have an AER Compact 60 acoustic amp which I love.  It sadly lacks though in terms of effects, which is where I'm hoping the Helix can join the party.  I also use a Voicelive 2 pedal board for vocals.  (For anyone unfamiliar, you run a guitar line into it and the pedal can harmonize vocals to the chords/notes coming from your guitar.)  But I'm not a fan of the discoloration of the guitar line through the pedal into the amp.  So I had been looking into a di box to split the signal before I got the Helix anyway.

 

So.. currently thinking about running my acoustic guitar into the Helix, then one line out into the acoustic amp, and another line out to the Voicelive unit.  (From there either a line out of both the amp and the Voicelive unit to FOH, or the Voicelive into the second channel on the acoustic amp for small acoustic gigs).  And given that some of the gigs I use both acoustic and electric, thinking about running the electric into the main guitar input, and the acoustic perhaps into one of the returns instead?  I've read a few different things around active vs piezo pickups and some not being ideal for certain inputs... all the acoustics I use live have active pickups, so would be great to confirm which input I might be best running with.

 

Does anyone have any experience with using the Helix with acoustic into an acoustic amp where they want to retain the character of the amp?  And what's best in terms of setting up channel strip to support that?  Eg. Do I just leave out amp and cab blocks altogether and just add any effects I want to run?  Or is there some trickery that may be required to get the signal output to match a direct line into the amp?  (with all the effects switched off that is).  I figure if I can get the base set up correct, then I can run a couple of different EQ blocks that I could tailor to each of my acoustics... so I could toggle between them depending on which guitar I'm using.

 

Also keen to make sure I don't accidentally damage the acoustic amp by running a heavy distorted tone through it, so was thinking it may be better to have completely different signal chain for the acoustic (use sends and returns etc) on the acoustic presets I set up, and trying to prevent the presets for the main guitar line from hitting the acoustic amp.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated!

[DunedinDragon]

I personally don't see the value in an acoustic amp unless it's just for goofing around at home or maybe in a VERY intimate setting with just a few people.  You'll get greater accuracy and definition not to mention scalability with just the Helix into any FRFR speaker or PA.  I do this all the time in live shows with a Takamine acoustic and an acoustic guitar preset I got from Jason Sadites YouTube channel on how to dial in an acoustic guitar through the Helix.

As far as the Voicelive 2 you should be able to simply run a send out of the Helix into the Voicelive to set the harmonies.  There's no reason to get a return from the Voicelive to the Helix.  If it were me I'd be sending my vocals (going through the Voicelive unit) and my Helix guitar output signals into separate mixer channels on a PA as that's the easiest and simplest way to get a good clean mix between guitar and vocals.

[aboucher74]

Thanks for the reply Dragon.  I came across the AER amp years ago when doing a guitar clinic with Tommy Emmanuel.  His sound just straight into the amp was unbelievable.  Pumps out great sound and surprising volume for a tiny compact thing, and makes for a super compact rig that has more than done the job for weddings and alike.  And if it was good enough for a guy like that to be using for his live rig, well... certainly more than capable for me :-)

 

Had no intention of running from the Voicelive back into the Helix again.  My question around using the return on the Helix was around using one of the returns as the guitar input for the acoustic... and having a different signal path and routing to the electric which I could run into the main guitar in as per normal.  (Although to trick the routing on the Voicelive, you actually connect a guitar out cable that goes to nowhere so that it splits the signal and you can get a clean vocal signal without combining the guitar).

 

Don't suppose you've tried using a return as the input for the takamine?  Or having a different signal path for electric and acoustic?

[DunedinDragon]

I've used the Aux input for the Takamine when I would have a single a preset that combines a signal chain for electric and one for acoustic.  I don't see why a return wouldn't work as long as it's on a separate signal chain from the electric.  It won't be as robust as the guitar input so you might need to boost it a bit, but it should be okay.

 

It just seems to me to be the easiest way to keep the two signal chains separated  by defining one input block as electric guitar and one as Aux.  I haven't done this in a long time since I was doing it to allow one of the other guys in the group to play acoustic while I played electric on certain songs, but there were so many limitations compared to just running the acoustic straight to the mixing board via a DI box that's what I do now when it's needed and just send the acoustic signal back to the stage via the stage monitors.

[Lone_Poor_Boy]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:14 AM, aboucher74 said:

I also use a Voicelive 2 pedal board for vocals.....  But I'm not a fan of the discoloration of the guitar line through the pedal into the amp.

 

I assume you are coming out the Guitar 'Thru', correct, to the Helix?  That shouldn't color the sound at all.  That's how I run my Voicelive Harmony and my guitar sounds exactly as it does straight into the Helix.

 

But as Dunedin noted you can come back to the Voicelive 2 from the Helix.

 

EDIT: Note - if your Voicelive 2 acts like my Voicelive Harmony, then when you use the 'Thru' out it kills the guitar mix coming out the XLRs.

 

 

[HonestOpinion]

On 6/21/2020 at 11:14 AM, aboucher74 said:

Hi guys,

 

Most of the threads I've read around this topic are either around acoustic IRs for Helix straight into FOH, or people attempting to use an acoustic amp as an FRFR output.  I have an AER Compact 60 acoustic amp which I love.  It sadly lacks though in terms of effects, which is where I'm hoping the Helix can join the party.  I also use a Voicelive 2 pedal board for vocals.  (For anyone unfamiliar, you run a guitar line into it and the pedal can harmonize vocals to the chords/notes coming from your guitar.)  But I'm not a fan of the discoloration of the guitar line through the pedal into the amp.  So I had been looking into a di box to split the signal before I got the Helix anyway.

 

So.. currently thinking about running my acoustic guitar into the Helix, then one line out into the acoustic amp, and another line out to the Voicelive unit.  (From there either a line out of both the amp and the Voicelive unit to FOH, or the Voicelive into the second channel on the acoustic amp for small acoustic gigs).  And given that some of the gigs I use both acoustic and electric, thinking about running the electric into the main guitar input, and the acoustic perhaps into one of the returns instead?  I've read a few different things around active vs piezo pickups and some not being ideal for certain inputs... all the acoustics I use live have active pickups, so would be great to confirm which input I might be best running with.

 

Does anyone have any experience with using the Helix with acoustic into an acoustic amp where they want to retain the character of the amp?  And what's best in terms of setting up channel strip to support that?  Eg. Do I just leave out amp and cab blocks altogether and just add any effects I want to run?  Or is there some trickery that may be required to get the signal output to match a direct line into the amp?  (with all the effects switched off that is).  I figure if I can get the base set up correct, then I can run a couple of different EQ blocks that I could tailor to each of my acoustics... so I could toggle between them depending on which guitar I'm using.

 

Also keen to make sure I don't accidentally damage the acoustic amp by running a heavy distorted tone through it, so was thinking it may be better to have completely different signal chain for the acoustic (use sends and returns etc) on the acoustic presets I set up, and trying to prevent the presets for the main guitar line from hitting the acoustic amp.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

I have always used my electric guitars through the 'Guitar In' input. My acoustic guitars, which like yours have active pickups, go  through my 'Aux In' input. As you have read one of the Return inputs may be preferable depending on the guitar and pickups. Try them both and see which works better for your guitar.

 

I usually use separate presets when I go acoustic but you can design them with a separate path for both your electric and acoustic guitars if you prefer. As far as the signal chain is concerned no great trickery is required but it did take me some time to design an acoustic preset I really liked.  I have had some small success experimenting with various attempts to use for example the 'Studio Tube Pre' or even amp blocks as well as acoustic IRs but find that just running direct to FOH with some EQ, reverb, delay, compression, chorus and/or whatever other effects you want is all you really need for the acoustic guitar.  Btw, I always have a volume block set up for a solo boost.

 

I do not use "Multi" on my input blocks but instead select "Guitar" or "Aux" depending on whether the preset is intended for acoustic or electric. I tried using "Multi" when I started and if I forgot to turn down the volume knob when I switched guitars I would get feedback from the unused guitar in the middle of a tune. Save yourself the headache. I always use a separate send from the Helix for the acoustic guitar(the XLR output is reserved for my electric guitar) so that I can feed my electric and acoustic guitars to separate channels at the FOH mixer. Both guitars go to the same FRFR stage monitor.

 

I concur with most of the points DunedinDragon already made including his recommendation to use a Helix send to the Voicelive out to FOH. I agree with your concern about potential damage using a compact acoustic amp for heavy electric guitar although I suppose that depends on how tough the amp is. That leaves you requiring a different monitor for the electric guitar. Rather than dragging two monitors to a gig isn't it easier just to use an FRFR(or two for stereo) that is robust enough to deliver both great acoustic and electric tones. Separate acoustic and electric guitar monitors is just too much hassle for me. I would only consider using the AER Compact 60 live for all-acoustic gigs with maybe a bit of light electric guitar. It could probably be made to sound great with the Helix.

[aboucher74]

Thanks guys!  Totally onboard with all the points raised.  Will try out both the aux and return and see if I get any material differences for the guitars out of either.

 

Lone_poor_boy - I'd previously run a combined mixed signal out of the voicelive 2 when I was having the discoloration issues.  Sounded fine to everyone listening on.  But as I knew how much better the sound of the guitar direct into the amp was, I was left a little disappointed.  Should have tried what you suggested and run the guitar thru and sent them as separate signals.  It was exactly your point in the edit about putting a cable into the guitar thru that I was thinking about to get a vocal only line out of the voicelive, and taking the guitar line from the helix directly instead.  

 

Honest_opinion - excellent tip on the input routing on the patches!  That's exactly the sort of thing I'd end up learning the hard way, as I'd have one sitting on the stand humming away while I was playing.  Also good point you make around whether this setup would require a second monitor.  On a tangent.. I'd been looking into whether to get myself a powercab 112 plus.  To date having been playing through m-audio bx5s at home (for electric), then through whatever the venue had or PA gear I hired for stage.  The AER compact 60 is so stupidly small and light its never proved any burden (think its just under 7kgs), so I could sling it over my shoulder along with a backpack and guitar in each hand in one trip.  If I did get myself another FRFR option, I might rethink that somewhat... (you know, second trip to the car is a mission! lol)  Also, great tip about the volume block for solo boost.  Beats the hell out of nudging the dials on the onboard EQ or adjusting the volume pedal in the middle of a song.

 

Thanks again guys, really appreciate the input!