Gain staging facilitation

[dennisnv]

Unless I am missing something the only way to gain stage a preset in the Helix is to bypass all the blocks and check each one using the master output meters. It would be handy in HX Edit to: A) have mini meters on each block, or B) have a meter block to place, or move around, between the various fx blocks, or C) have an option where the connectors between blocks act as meters.

[DunedinDragon]

HXEdit is a simple dumb terminal program that allows you to control the Helix functions rather than using the controls on the unit.  It doesn't receive, nor is it aware of what is happening with your signal inside the Helix.  That's why the master output meters are on the Helix unit.

It's not really necessary to gain stage each block unless you're monkeying around with volume settings in each block.  Generally your basic output level is controlled via the channel volume of your amp block, or by the output block.  Those are the only two places where you're guaranteed you can change the volume without affecting the tone.  By and large your best approach is to set your volume level using the channel volume of the amp, or through a simple gain block if not using an amp and then use the various volume controls on the other blocks to make the minor adjustments to the volume to compensate for when that block is engaged.

To put a finer point on things, these adjustments are made only to the digital representation of volume output in your signal chain.  The actual analog output level going to the outside world is controlled via the Helix master volume knob position, unless you've specified a given output (XLR or 1/4") is to be disconnected from the signal chain in which case the analog output level of your signal chain will be as if your Helix volume knob were set at full volume.  You would then gain stage the signal based on the gain control of the receiving device (mixing board, or powered speaker for example).

[rd2rk]

On the eighth day she said "Let there be ears, that the rock may ring forth!"

 

But seriously - 

 

Wrong forum. This is where you go if you're serious about suggestions for changes and improvements:

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/index

 

Before posting a new idea, please search to see if it's already been proposed (it has)

If 100 people vote on the same idea presented 20 different ways, it looks like only 5 people care about it!

Also, post your ideas one at a time. I for one NEVER vote for multiple combined suggestions.
 

 

[kylotan]

5 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

It's not really necessary to gain stage each block unless you're monkeying around with volume settings in each block.

 

I don't think that's true. It's easy to set one block up in such a way that you might get output too high or low, and that can affect how subsequent blocks are going to react, especially amps, distortions, and compressors.

 

I do check the gain staging on each block but mostly I just do it by bypassing all the blocks, checking the level, then re-enabling them one at a time and checking everything is still in range.

[DunedinDragon]

25 minutes ago, kylotan said:

 

I don't think that's true. It's easy to set one block up in such a way that you might get output too high or low, and that can affect how subsequent blocks are going to react, especially amps, distortions, and compressors.

 

I do check the gain staging on each block but mostly I just do it by bypassing all the blocks, checking the level, then re-enabling them one at a time and checking everything is still in range.

 

As I mentioned, if you start by gain staging the amp(s) in isolation and use that as your standard for your level, it's pretty easy to detect whether any given additional block you add is affecting the level of your signal by simply turning it on and off and correct it immediately.  Or you can do as your doing and turn off everything in the signal chain but the amp(s) in the chain then turn each one on individually and correct it based on the level of the amp.  You only run into the problem you're talking about if you set up all the elements and THEN start trying to gain stage them individually.  Naturally anything you add that increases the gain will always effect anything down stream of it including amps.  It still all comes back to using your amp output level as the standard for where you want your signal chain gain staged and simply address it on each block as it gets added.

[soundog]

Good thread.! FYI, this old thread was useful to me when I was digging into gain staging when building patches:

 

 

[dennisnv]

Wow, an active forum indeed; thanks for all the interest in this topic. First, in response to RD2RK, I appreciate you getting me pointed in the right direction. I actually thought I was putting this in the ideascale thread so I obviously need to spend some time figuring out how to properly use this forum. Maybe a moderator can move it to the correct location?  I'll be sure to go and vote for the post about improving the gain staging tools assuming that the post you refer to is for the same, and just similar, topic as mine. To DunedinDragon I thank you for your inspired summary of how levels are handled in the Helix; it's always good to add some background to the topic. But with regard to maintaining a viable signal level between each block and the subsequent block; as we all know, a signal that is too hot or too cold can affect how the subsequent block will function, digital clipping being the worse case scenario. Kloton totally gets it and to confirm it all one need do is add a Deranged Master distortion to a signal chain and increase the drive control; you will get an increase in the signal level without touching the level control. Compensating for level changes when applying compression to the signal is also part of gain staging and the Helix compression blocks do contain helpful gain reduction meters but they don't include level meters. SoundDog also get's it; the whole purpose of gain staging is to ensure unity gain throughout the signal chain. DunedinDragon, you also point out the need for gain staging in your second reply and your process for evaluating each block as it is added to the chain is good practice for initial creation of a preset but it doesn't speak to the need for a convenient way to continue the process when tweaking the existing blocks or when swapping models within a block. It is also certain that some musicians work with more complex signal chains than others and needs will vary accordingly. Whew! So, to iterate the topic: While there is a way (or perhaps ways) to perform the task of gain staging in Helix, to me it seems more important for Yamaha to expend resources developing a quicker and more convenient way to do this necessary task than to, for example, add yet another distortion pedal to the already massive library. Once again, I thank everyone for their input, you are a fun and spirited group of people ...

[DunedinDragon]

17 hours ago, dennisnv said:

DunedinDragon, you also point out the need for gain staging in your second reply and your process for evaluating each block as it is added to the chain is good practice for initial creation of a preset but it doesn't speak to the need for a convenient way to continue the process when tweaking the existing blocks or when swapping models within a block. It is also certain that some musicians work with more complex signal chains than others and needs will vary accordingly. Whew! So, to iterate the topic: While there is a way (or perhaps ways) to perform the task of gain staging in Helix, to me it seems more important for Yamaha to expend resources developing a quicker and more convenient way to do this necessary task than to, for example, add yet another distortion pedal to the already massive library. Once again, I thank everyone for their input, you are a fun and spirited group of people ...

I think we're all saying the same thing in different ways.  I'm a bit confused about exactly how you would envision how a more simplified approach to gain staging by Line 6 would work.  Gain staging always has and always will be about managing the signal level.  However, the signal level is never the full story.  A distortion pedal is a classic example where, depending on how you've adjusted the parameters, the ultimate signal level may be affected by either the level of the distortion pedal, or the gain/distortion level of the pedal, or in some cases even the tone configuration.  Assuming your baseline gain staging is established at the amp, what you are willing to adjust in the distortion pedal is dependent on the sound you're trying to achieve, and could even cause you to consider changing the output of the amp rather than to adjust any specific element in the distortion pedal.  That's not something any automated process is ever going to be able to achieve.  Being able to examine the effect in isolation could be useful in certain circumstances such as is the case with the gain reduction meter.  But even with a gain reduction meter you're only evaluating visually how gain reduction is being applied to the signal, but not whether it's pleasing or consistent with the sound you're wanting to achieve.  But there again, the visual representation of the level of gain falls well short of what you subjectively are after in terms of the overall sound of the preset, which again isn't something one can automate.

It all comes down to the one thing that gets repeated over and over in these forums which is that your ears are going to be the ultimate judge, not the signal meters.  Nothing could exemplify this more prominently in my opinion than the new Retro Reel effect where parameters such as Saturation and Level and even Tape Speed can have an effect both on the overall signal level as well as the overall tone the effect is providing based on where it's placed in your signal chain.  That's where the only "tool" Line6 could provide to help is YOUR ears.

[dennisnv]

9 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

I think we're all saying the same thing in different ways.  I'm a bit confused about exactly how you would envision how a more simplified approach to gain staging by Line 6 would work.  Gain staging always has and always will be about managing the signal level.  However, the signal level is never the full story.  A distortion pedal is a classic example where, depending on how you've adjusted the parameters, the ultimate signal level may be affected by either the level of the distortion pedal, or the gain/distortion level of the pedal, or in some cases even the tone configuration.  Assuming your baseline gain staging is established at the amp, what you are willing to adjust in the distortion pedal is dependent on the sound you're trying to achieve, and could even cause you to consider changing the output of the amp rather than to adjust any specific element in the distortion pedal.  That's not something any automated process is ever going to be able to achieve.  Being able to examine the effect in isolation could be useful in certain circumstances such as is the case with the gain reduction meter.  But even with a gain reduction meter you're only evaluating visually how gain reduction is being applied to the signal, but not whether it's pleasing or consistent with the sound you're wanting to achieve.  But there again, the visual representation of the level of gain falls well short of what you subjectively are after in terms of the overall sound of the preset, which again isn't something one can automate.

It all comes down to the one thing that gets repeated over and over in these forums which is that your ears are going to be the ultimate judge, not the signal meters.  Nothing could exemplify this more prominently in my opinion than the new Retro Reel effect where parameters such as Saturation and Level and even Tape Speed can have an effect both on the overall signal level as well as the overall tone the effect is providing based on where it's placed in your signal chain.  That's where the only "tool" Line6 could provide to help is YOUR ears.

I agree there is no man made substitute for our ears; and, our hearing truly is the ultimate judge of musical value but there is certainly a place for signal metering in the world of audio. While your approach to developing signal chains might not benefit from block-centric metering, I, and I think many others, would find them quite useful. I am not sure where you got the idea that I suggested some form of automated gain staging tool be invented; this topic is, or at least started out as, an observation that a more convenient means of metering could be provided in the Helix platform to facilitate the task of gain staging a signal chain.

It seems you are intent on converting me to a different way of going about my business, or at least convincing me there's a better way. I'm also sensing you want me to counter with more detail of my process; however, that would be remiss. There are many books, videos and other resources available that can explain audio engineering much better than I ever could here. I assure you I am completely satisfied with my approach to music creation; I think that the long and successful history of applying science in harmony with the artistic nature of music speaks for itself. In that regard, it would be helpful for people like me if a tedious aspect of our process were made quicker so we could get on with the more interesting aspects; and, with no negative impact on people who approach their work like you do.

I must say, it is very interesting to read your insights on the signal chain and thank you for sharing your obviously well developed and extensive knowledge base on the subject. I hope you don't mind me saying so, but your discourse reminds me of that I find in "amp-in-the-room" analog oriented chat rooms; your "real world" vernacular adds needed dimension to a digital-realm oriented forum such as this and speaks to how closely Line6/Yamaha have come to replicating the analog realm. I have read your discussion carefully and have taken it seriously as part of my never ending quest for self improvement. While I am not sure there was anything new, there were certainly things presented in ways new to me.

[rd2rk]

The thing I like about Ideascale, and the reason I keep telling people to post their ideas there, is that we all get to VOTE for those ideas we think would be useful, and DOWN VOTE those that we think are a waste of the L6 programmers' time and efforts.

 

So, @dennisnv, POST your idea, come back with the link, and let your peers decide if your idea has merit enough to influence the L6 design process!

 

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!

[dennisnv]

14 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

The thing I like about Ideascale, and the reason I keep telling people to post their ideas there, is that we all get to VOTE for those ideas we think would be useful, and DOWN VOTE those that we think are a waste of the L6 programmers' time and efforts.

 

So, @dennisnv, POST your idea, come back with the link, and let your peers decide if your idea has merit enough to influence the L6 design process!

 

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!

Yes, thanks for pointing me in the right direction; I applied for access to the Line6 Ideascale site yesterday and am awaiting approval. Ideascale surely makes it easier for Yamaha/Line6 to involve users in product development as opposed to culling out the user request/input data from the forum discussion; and, I am thinking this is only one tool of many used to develop their product improvement plan. These forums, however, are surely the place to lobby for votes. I was president of a CAD user group back in the day and I sometimes wonder if an autonomous community of users might still be the better way to steer a corporation/product from the user side of things; probably not since corporate image is everything these days so they are much more responsive ...

[rd2rk]

If you want to lobby for your idea, once you've posted the idea on Ideascale, go to The Gear Page>Digital & Modeling Forum and post your idea (and link) either in the Helix thread, or create a new thread with a title that reflects it's purpose.

There's a MUCH larger community of Helix users there.

[dennisnv]

4 hours ago, rd2rk said:

If you want to lobby for your idea, once you've posted the idea on Ideascale, go to The Gear Page>Digital & Modeling Forum and post your idea (and link) either in the Helix thread, or create a new thread with a title that reflects it's purpose.

There's a MUCH larger community of Helix users there.

Hey rd2rk, thanks for the tip, I'll try to get around to doing that ...