Fender blues DeVille & helix lt

[babylamb]

Sorry for the same question somewhere in the forum. Trying to run my Fender Blues DeVille 410 - Helix LT, I’m having some issues with Tone. Obviously FRFR is the way to go but I can’t make that investment at the moment. I’ll run the Fender in front of the helix * fender input 1 - helix out - guitar in helix (like a standard pedal, did this with the line 6 M13) I notice immediately my clean volume from the fender (bypassing all blocks on helix) is way lower then my amps knobs show, if I try increasing the volume knob on my fender it gives off a loud hissing sound. I’ll increase the volume knob on the helix to find the same volume from my amp but  my clean amp tone gets very trebly. That’s issue number 1… so I’ve tried running 4CM & as everyone knows fenders use “power amp in & power amp out” obviously I won’t get that creamy clean the amp produces,{ fender power amp in - helix out ~ fender preamp out - helix return 1 ~ fender input 1 - helix send 1 ~ guitar - helix guitar in..  ( I’ve noticed the 4CM doesn’t accomplish a better result. I’ve used the 4CM template on the helix / I’ve tried creating my own patch with blocks for send, one for return, nothing gets me a good tone. I’ve noticed with loud gain blocks “cali rectifier sim’s / line 6 legacy non sims distortion or any other gain option, I’ll hear the clean amp tone with the overdrive tone, I’ve got to literally crank up the volume knob on the helix to get the distortion to drown out that clean amp tone.  Also!!! Sorry there’s more, while using 4CM I’ve noticed fender Power amp in is the only thing sending audio, I’ve tried running it with fender power amp in - helix output ~ guitar - helix guitar in, this option still doesn’t give me the true blues DeVille creamy cleans.. how do I get the fender creamy cleans in this situation to work? Or what’s the best way to utilize my setup so I don’t have to use sims “which break up at loud volumes” just looking for a good tone.. I’m about to sell this helix

[SaschaFranck]

First off: It'd massively help if you'd a) used paragraphs and b) used the common signal flow descriptions such as guitar -> HX -> amp input, etc., rather than the other way around. And it'd help if you could get some parts of the terminology right, at least a bit. As an example, a power amp isn't sending audio, it's receiving audio. In case english isn't your native language and hence causing you problems, rather use Deepl.

 

If you wanted to get things right in a 4CM scenario, the most important bit would be to get your send/return levels right. This is especially true for Fender amps as they usually don't have a "true" master volume, the entire overall volume often sits in the preamp (with the power amp always running at full volume), which results in the send level of the amp to wildly vary once you adjust your levels on the amp. I wouldn't bet on it, but I could imagine this to be no different on your amp.

 

As a result, when running that kind of amp the 4CM way, you should possibly rather not touch the amps volume controls too much others than to balance the two channels. The Helix output would then function as your new master volume.

 

Then, the first thing you want to make sure is that the HX loop your sending from to the amp is set to instrument level, that's just what the amp expects (this is done in the global menu).

You should ideally also not do the entire cabling at once but start with the portion of the Helix you'd want to run in front of the amp.

 

So, your first attempt would be to set up the amp so it sounds great. Then you'd run your guitar into the HX input, bypass everything on the unit, set up a send and connect that send to your amp. Ideally, things would now sound the same as without the Helix.

Note: For a start, make sure to use one of the FX Loop blocks, not the separate send and return blocks. This is just to make sure the entire signal passes through the loop (the mix slider needs to be at 100% for that, which is the default).

Your tone should now be pretty much identical to the pure amp tone. Note: a certain (pretty small but existing) coloration is to be expected. After all, the signal is converted to the digital domain and back, in addition the Helix has an input amp (even if it largely just serves as a buffer).

In case the signal is somewhat higher or lower in volume, you can adjust the send level accordingly. Later on you might as well fool around with the impedance setting in the Helix, could as well be that the amp has a different input impedance than 1mOhm, so you might like to mimic that on the HX input - but for now, leave that setting alone (hence at "auto"). Also make sure the Gate and Guitar Pad are off.

 

Next step would be to disconnect the HX and run your guitar straight into the amp (this is not a requirement but just to make sure things do in fact work). Now grab the signal from your Fender's preamp out and feed it into the return of the HX loop you plan to use. Then connect the output of the HX to your amp's power amp in. Ideally, the tone would now be pretty similar to the tone without the HX inserted. Compensate for volume using the HX big volume knob.

 

Very important note: The previous step is possibly *the* most tricky part of it all. The level coming from your preamp out might be pretty hot, so the HX might not like it too much on a loop set to instrument level (which is what it needs to be because you're as well feeding the amp from there), but I wouldn't happen to know. Maybe things are just fine. In case they're not, you would possibly have to use two different loops, the first one set to instrument level, the second one set to line level. You would then use the separate send/return blocks and send to the amp using loop 1 but plug the amp's preamp out into the return of loop 2. If you should ever have to try it, make *absolutely* sure that "dry through" is set to 0 on the send and mix to 100% on the return. Otherwise a portion of the signal wouldn't run through your preamp.

But: You might not have to do any of that, the plain FX loop block might be fine, so that's defenitely where you should start at.

 

Anyhow, in case you're happy with the results of the last step, also do what you did first, namely connect your guitar to the HX and the send to your amp's input.

This should now be a working setup to start with.

 

Alternatively, ditch the entire preamp section of the Fender and just run the Helix into the power amp in. Just make sure to bypass all cabs. Ideally, you might as well just use the HX's preamp models instead of full amp blocks. But bypassing all cabs is paramount.

[zappazapper]

If I may sum up what @SaschaFranck is saying, is that 4CM is often not "plug and play". There are a lot of places where something can go wrong. I've been using 4CM for 15 years one way or another and I'm still not sure I got it right.

 

@SaschaFranckmentioned some stuff about the topology of Fender amps - don't just breeze by this concept - a deep understanding about the signal flow from the front panel input, through the preamp, out the Preamp Out, back into the Power Amp In, and along to the power amp are essential to knowing what settings you need to use, and what control does what. On my Mesa Boogie .50 Caliber Plus, for example, the Master Volume is post-FX Return (Power Amp In), so that's the control I use to set my level, which is the opposite of Fender amps, where the Master Volume is pre-FX Return, so your Helix Volume control will be what you use to set your level. There are dozens of little idiosyncrasies of each amp that make using it in a 4CM configuration different than another amp, so the first thing to do is to start developing a deep understanding of just how your amp works, where signal goes, what the controls do.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is impedance, which affects both the interface with the front panel input of your amp and the FX loop. Incorrect impedance settings in both cases are sometimes a bigger problem than incorrect level settings. Both impedance and course signal levels for the loop are set by the Global Settings > Ins/Outs > Send/Return 1/2 options, with a finer level control being on the Loop and/or Send and Return blocks themselves. It's hard to know what loop impedance setting is right for each amp, but in my experience with my amp, there's more noise with one setting and less with the other, so I chose the one with less noise.

 

Input impedance is also important - part of what gives an amp its tone is how it interacts with a guitar's pickups - the lower the input impedance, the more it "loads" a guitar's pickups, sucking out high frequency content and giving it a "looser" feel. This is part of what gives some amps their "warm" character. Placing a buffered device like the Helix in between your guitar and the front panel input of your amp breaks this interaction between your amp and your guitar. Your guitar's pickups will now be "loaded" by the input of the Helix - fortunately, the input of the Helix has a variable input impedance feature, which can be controlled via "Guitar In-Z" option on the Input block. On my .50 Cal+, the default setting of 1M tends to make my amp sound more "screamy" than when I'm plugged into the amp on its own. I tested my amp's input impedance and found that it's around 470k. The closest setting that the variable impedance feature on the Helix offers is 230k, and that seems to work best - it sounds much closer to what I'm used to than the 1M setting. I suspect that your amp probably needs an even lower setting, being a Fender. It's not necessary to test and find the actual input impedance of your amp - just experiment with the "Guitar In-Z" option and find the setting that sounds and feels the closest to your amp, and don't be afraid to use a different setting that gives you a sound that you like that's different from what you're used to from your amp - it's impossible to cause damage with an input impedance setting.

 

Anyway, like @SaschaFrancksuggested, break it down to small pieces and troubleshoot one thing at a time. Once you've figured out how each part of the signal flow is supposed to work, you can put it all together and it should work out fine.

[Schmalle]

On 11/15/2022 at 4:21 PM, babylamb said:

[...] While using 4CM I’ve noticed fender Power amp in is the only thing sending audio, I’ve tried running it with fender power amp in - helix output ~ guitar - helix guitar in, this option still doesn’t give me the true blues DeVille creamy cleans.. how do I get the fender creamy cleans in this situation to work?

Try the US Deluxe preamps into the power amp. A bass 3, mids 4, treble 3 setting should simulate a 5/5/5 setting on the DeVille for cleans. Norm = no bright / Vib = bright.