Triggering Bypass with MIDI - Want to turn 1 block on while turning another off

[vsthem]

Just picked up Native and am really enjoying it. On my HX Stomp, I do a thing where I have a footswitch engage the wah, and at the same time, bypass my volume pedal. I do this by assigning bypass to both blocks, but manually turning one block on and the other off. The result is that my expression pedal controls the volume block normally, but when I engage the wah, the volume block is bypassed, so that the expression pedal only controls the wah and not the volume.  Cool huh?

 

Well, this doesn't seem to work in Native. When I assign the volume block bypass to the same CC as the wah, it automatically puts them in sync together, to where they both turn on and off at the same time when I trigger the CC.  

 

Is there a workaround for this?  Is this a bug that I can log? I would hope that the expected behaivior of Native would be consistent with the pedal versions.  

 

Thanks all!

[silverhead]

Why do you need to use the same CC? Can you not use different CCs and send two simultaneous MIDI messages, one to each CC, toggling them independently?

 

Sorry if the above is naive; I haven’t tried this myself.

[vsthem]

I'm using a Monogram Creative Console, and I don't believe that I can send multiple CCs on one button press through that. Though, I might be able to get reaper to trigger another CC on that channel when it receives the CC I have set up. I'll give it a shot!

[vsthem]

Doesn't seem to be a way to do that in Reaper, and my Monogram can only send one CC at a time. Any other suggestions?

[vsthem]

So I setup Two Midi channels in Reaper, both with inputs from my Monogram and outputs to Helix Native. One channel takes my CC103 (wah bypass) and transforms it to CC107 (volume bypass), the other just sends 103 (wah bypass). This should work! When I press the button on my Monogram, it successfully triggers 103 and 107, bypassing Wah and Volume. 

 

BUT! 

 

It does the same thing where if Volume is ON, Wah is OFF, I send the MIDI Signal, it bypasses the Volume, but doesn't turn on the wah. Subsequent presses makes them turn on and off together in sync. 

 

Can anyone from Line 6 comment on whether this is expected behavior, or if I can log a bug? I should be able to send one MIDI signal and have it turn off a block while turning another on. 

[silverhead]

Bear with me as I go back to the beginning here and try to understand exactly what you want to achieve via MIDI in Helix Native that you are achieving in a certain way on your Helix hardware. Perhaps you can achieve the desired result in a different way than trying to use MIDI to duplicate exactly what your hardware does.

 

Also, please understand that from your posts so far I know nothing about your experience with recording and plugins so forgive me if my comments are too simplistic for you.

 

You describe a ‘cool’ thing your hardware does by using a single footswitch to simultaneously and alternately switch FX blocks on/off. Presumably this is something you do while playing live, and it is convenient. I do it too. However, Helix Native lives in a recording program, and you don’t necessarily have to do everything ‘live’. In fact my normal practice is to simultaneously record both a dry and a wet (processed) track using a Helix preset while playing guitar and recording. The magic of this lies in the post-recording process, when I apply Helix Native to the dry track. I can tweak the amp and FX settings as desired at any time through the recording project, as more and more tracks are added and my previously recorded guitar tone needs to be adjusted. I can do so using Helix Native on the dry track without having to repeat the performance and record a new guitar track. In fact, the final production rarely includes the original recording of the processed track. And, very importantly, I can apply automation and controllers to the FX blocks and parameters within Helix Native, not necessarily but optionally using MIDI to do so. 

 

With that in mind, I have a few questions:

 

Are you exclusively trying to control your Vol and Wah FX while playing and recording live? If so, you can already do that using your cool hardware trick. Where does Helix Native come into the picture?

 

When you are using Helix Native, are you doing so with a prerecorded dry track or are you applying it to a track that has already been processed by your Helix device when it was recorded? If you haven’t already been using dry tracks and post-processing I recommend you try it. You can import your Helix hardware preset directly into Helix Native as a starting point for your post-processing.

 

Have you read the Automation and Controller Assign Tab section of the Helix Native manual, and experimented with the techniques and strategies described there? Will track automation using only Helix Native and Reaper meet your needs without using MIDI at all?

[vsthem]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I wrote a long response that didn't go through and was lost, so I got a bit discouraged.

 

I'm definitely aware that everything can be automated within the DAW, which is great, and one of the reasons I picked up the Native VST was to be able to do that. 

 

However, I've loved having a physical HX Stomp hooked up for just sitting down and playing, coming up with ideas and triggering different FX with my feet and using the expression pedal. I use volume swells and wah quite a lot on my stomp.  What I was HOPING to be able to do was leave the HX Stomp in my gig bag, and with my Monogram CC, be able to do all the things I could do with my HX Stomp, just in terms of playing around and coming up with ideas, without having to setup automation and whatnot.  With the exception of the volume/wah thing, I have everything else assigned to a button I can press (Dist, Echo, Trem, verb mix and decay increase, wah), but I can't currently control the volume without changing a preset or clicking into the VST.

 

I know it's nitpicky, especially in a studio, rather than live environment, but it's just kind of irking me that I can't do the simple thing of simultaneously bypassing a volume block and engaging the wah block. I know that I can record the different sounds on separate tracks, or just click them, but I'd prefer just to get the same flow going that I have with my physical unit, without the clutter of having the HX Stomp at my feet.  

 

Thanks for chiming in. It seems to me that this is a bug, but I understand that I'm trying to get a VST Plugin to act more like a live tool (even just "live" in the studio), which is not its intended purpose. If there's anything that can be done to fix it, or any clever workarounds, I'd be very grateful!  

 

Thanks

 

 

[datacommando]

On 12/6/2022 at 12:20 AM, vsthem said:

I understand that I'm trying to get a VST Plugin to act more like a live tool (even just "live" in the studio), which is not its intended purpose.

Hi,

 

Essentially you’re correct in that statement, but some people do use Helix Native for live performance very successfully.

 

It appears to me that you have chosen the wrong tool for the job of controlling MIDI within your DAW. The Monogram Creative Console is a multi- headed beast, used by photo and videographers and I have also seen it used by at least one highly respected soundtrack composer. It can write the required automation to control your audio signal, but it should be regarded more as a mixing tool. You should be able to switch between various effects, and as in your example - bypass a volume block and engage a wah block, but as the controller device is operated manually you would have to stop playing to hit the Monogram button assigned to that function. Once you have turned off the Vol block and now want to use the Wah in real time - oops! You have to now use your hand to manipulate a knob or fader to create the treadle effect, provided that the function is mapped via MIDI.
 

This is precisely why guitar players use their feet for EXP pedals and to switch things. You have decided that that is not what you want and therefore you are stuck in this situation. If you really do intend to leave your HX Stomp in the gig bag then you require a MIDI controller that you can work with your feet to achieve the desired results. Many people opt for the Behringer FCB1010 to do the job. Although, having said that, it appears that you don’t want to get into the necessary part of using a controller system, which requires you to map MIDI functions to control various parameters within the DAW and Native. 

In your comment you say, “It seems to me that this is a bug”.  -

this is from page 8 of the HX Edit Pilot’s Guide.

 

”The Helix Native plugin does not utilize any hardware-based bypass, footswitch or EXP controller, Variax or Powercab parameter assignments, or Command Center assignments that may exist within HX Edit-exported presets. Any such assignments that are supported only by Helix/HX hardware remain intact within your presets, but are essentially ignored by Helix Native.* Snapshot and applicable MIDI In type assignments, however, are supported in both Helix hardware and Helix Native plugin.) Helix Native plugin includes its own functionality to create plugin parameter - Automation Controller type assignments, which are similarly ignored when Helix Native presets are imported into the HX Edit application.”

 

Erm… no, probably not a “bug”, more a misunderstanding of how the thing was designed to work. Native is the software brain of the Helix, but obviously it lacks the physical connections of the hardware units for Send/Return, FX loops, the Looper functions etc. These are things that either have to be worked around, or worked with. Maybe you should take a deeper dive with the MIDI operation of your Monogram CC, and the MIDI Learn within your DAW, but I’m not convinced that it the best thing for what you’re wanting to do. I have tools to do the specific job I need them to do, for example my Behringer XTouch can fully automate audio mixing and control all my plug-ins during mastering, and my my Arturia KeyLab61 can communicate and control any function of my soft synths, samplers and drums within Logic Pro.

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

HX Edit Pilots Guide:

https://line6.com/data/6/0a020a3f103516363ef9986002/application/pdf/HX Edit Pilots Guide 3.50 - English .pdf
 

Helix Native Pilot’s Guide:

https://line6.com/data/6/0a020a4039926363ef079d156/application/pdf/Helix Native Pilot Guide 3.50 - English .pdf
 

[vsthem]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I AM using an expression pedal, assigned to CC#13, coming in through my MIDI keyboard. I’m using this in conjunction with the Monogram. 

 

I don’t think that using a behringer footswitch would make a difference (though I could be wrong).Native doesn’t know or care whether MIDI CC #103 is being received by my Monogram, or by a Behringer footswitch.  MIDI is MIDI right? 

 

I can’t imagine that I’m the only person that would want to simultaneously bypass a block while engaging another with a single MIDI CC. Anyhow, whether it’s a bug or not, it’s clear that Native is not currently built to do this, and knowing that led me to finding a Reaper based solution, which I’ll lay out on the off chance that anyone is following this

 

Insert JS:Volume Adjustment above Helix Native

Edit the plugin to go to a maximum of 0, rather than +60 (or whatever it was)

Assign your expression pedal to control the volume slider

Assign the same CC that engages/bypasses your wah block (103 in my case) to bypass JS:Volume Adjustment. 

 

Voila, you know have a volume pedal that bypasses when you engage the wah.  

 

Thanks all for your input.