Helix LT for a bass, guitar, and vocals at the same time

[WGOWWGO]

I play in a two piece band with a drummer.

My guitar has a hexaphonic pickup in the neck which only picks up the E and A string. This pickup has its own output jack.

My guitar bridge pickup is a normal 6 string pickup with its own output jack. 

I also use a Boss VE-5 to add harmonies when I sing. 

 

My idea is to have 4 paths:

Path 1 - Bass (runs to mixing desk)

This would have an octave, a bass amp and cab, a compressor, and a 10 band eq.

 

Path 2 - Guitar (runs to mixing desk)

This would have a guitar amp and cab, an EQ, a delay, and a phaser. 

 

Path 3 - Guitar (runs to fx return of a guitar amp)

This would have a guitar amp (no cab), an EQ, a delay, and a phaser.

 

Path 4 - Vocals (runs to mixing desk)

This would have a harmony, an EQ, and a delay.

 

Would the Helix LT be able to do this?

I saw a Scott Uhl video where he showed how to set up four inputs and four outputs. 

The mic I use would be an SM58 behringer clone.

 

Being able to turn lots of effects on and off with on push of a button would make my life much easier. 

 

Here is the Scott Uhl video. He's a clever guy.

 

[datacommando]

On 7/2/2024 at 4:27 AM, WGOWWGO said:

I play in a two piece band with a drummer.

My guitar has a hexaphonic pickup in the neck which only picks up the E and A string. This pickup has its own output jack.

My guitar bridge pickup is a normal 6 string pickup with its own output jack. 

I also use a Boss VE-5 to add harmonies when I sing. 

 

My idea is to have 4 paths:

Path 1 - Bass (runs to mixing desk)

This would have an octave, a bass amp and cab, a compressor, and a 10 band eq.

 

Path 2 - Guitar (runs to mixing desk)

This would have a guitar amp and cab, an EQ, a delay, and a phaser. 

 

Path 3 - Guitar (runs to fx return of a guitar amp)

This would have a guitar amp (no cab), an EQ, a delay, and a phaser.

 

Path 4 - Vocals (runs to mixing desk)

This would have a harmony, an EQ, and a delay.

 

Would the Helix LT be able to do this?

I saw a Scott Uhl video where he showed how to set up four inputs and four outputs. 

The mic I use would be an SM58 behringer clone.

 

Being able to turn lots of effects on and off with on push of a button would make my life much easier. 

 

Here is the Scott Uhl video. He's a clever guy.

 

Hi,

 

Yep, Scott is a clever guy - so clever that he set this up using a Helix, and pointed out the downfall of using the Helix LT - It really doesn't have enough In/Outs for what you describe. 

 

Your idea is to have 4 paths - that's fine in theory and possibly do-able, but you describe a guitar with 2 output jacks, so that's 2 inputs gone (Guitar In and maybe Return 1 for example) , but O.K., let's try this.

 

Guitar In (from pickup) > Path 1A  > Split to 1B > Amp > Cab > EQ > Delay > Phaser > XLR Out L (panned 100 Left to Mixer)

 

                                                       > Split from 1A  > Amp >  EQ > Delay > Phaser > Send1 (to amp FX Loop return)

 

Bass In using Return 1 1/4’’ Jack (from Hex P/up) > Path 3 > Bass Octaver > Bass Amp > Bass Cab > Comp > EQ > XLR Out R (panned 100 Right to Mixer)

 

Vocal In using Return 2 1/4’’ Jack (from Behringer SM58)  > Path 4 > Harmoniser > Studio Mic Pre-amp > Comp > EQ > Delay > Reverb.

 

If this doesn’t work, you should consider investing in a full blown Helix with all those extra sockets.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense

 

Please find attached possible configuration for the LT, it may need some editing as I did this with a Helix

 

4Path LT.hlx

[MusicLaw]

On 7/2/2024 at 10:37 AM, datacommando said:

 

<Snip>

Scott is a clever guy - so clever that he set this up using a Helix, and pointed out the downfall of using the Helix LT - It really doesn't have enough In/Outs for what you describe. 

<Snip>

 

[WGOWWGO]

On 7/3/2024 at 2:37 AM, datacommando said:

 

Hi,

 

Yep, Scott is a clever guy - so clever that he set this up using a Helix, and pointed out the downfall of using the Helix LT - It really doesn't have enough In/Outs for what you describe. 

 

Your idea is to have 4 paths - that's fine in theory and possibly do-able, but you describe a guitar with 2 output jacks, so that's 2 inputs gone (Guitar In and maybe Return 1 for example) , but O.K., let's try this.

 

Guitar In (from pickup) > Path 1A  > Split to 1B > Amp > Cab > EQ > Delay > Phaser > XLR Out L (panned 100 Left to Mixer)

 

                                                       > Split from 1A  > Amp >  EQ > Delay > Phaser > Send1 (to amp FX Loop return)

 

Bass In using Return 1 1/4’’ Jack (from Hex P/up) > Path 3 > Bass Octaver > Bass Amp > Bass Cab > Comp > EQ > XLR Out R (panned 100 Right to Mixer)

 

Vocal In using Return 2 1/4’’ Jack (from Behringer SM58)  > Path 4 > Harmoniser > Studio Mic Pre-amp > Comp > EQ > Delay > Reverb.

 

If this doesn’t work, you should consider investing in a full blown Helix with all those extra sockets.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense

 

Please find attached possible configuration for the LT, it may need some editing as I did this with a Helix

 

4Path LT.hlx 24.16 kB · 0 downloads

 

Thanks for the reply. 

I don't own any Helix products because I wanted to check whether this was possible before I bought anything.

I thought someone here might be able to confirm whether it's possible. 

 

Your example gives possibles ins and outs, however you didn't specify which out you would use for the vocal. 

 

Also, would it be possible to put a split in the vocal path, insert a harmony and EQ block, then rejoin the original vocal path? 

 

[datacommando]

On 7/2/2024 at 11:44 PM, WGOWWGO said:

 

Thanks for the reply. 

I don't own any Helix products because I wanted to check whether this was possible before I bought anything.

I thought someone here might be able to confirm whether it's possible. 

 

Your example gives possibles ins and outs, however you didn't specify which out you would use for the vocal. 

 

Also, would it be possible to put a split in the vocal path, insert a harmony and EQ block, then rejoin the original vocal path? 

 

Hi,

 

As you don’t actually own a Helix LT unit, you might have guessed from my post, and the “snip” from @MusicLaw above, this is really pushing it to the limits, considering the limitations of the connections available. If you really need the flexibility shown in the video, you need to be using either the Helix floor or Rack devices.
 

Even with a Helix it is quite feasible to push it to the extreme. For example you asked, “would it be possible to put a split in the vocal path, insert a harmony and EQ block, then rejoin the original vocal path?” The short answer is “NO” - it is only possible to access 4 paths, and what you describe is not possible. Also, consider each path can only have 8 blocks, and each pair of paths use a single DSP chip. 

 

In my example preset all those blocks are mono. Stereo blocks require more processing power along with stereo output connections. Some amplifier models, reverbs and polyphonic blocks consume huge amounts of processing power. Some are so complex that they can use almost 100% of a single DSP.

 

Ah, I accidentally failed to mention that the preset I supplied was using Send 2 as the output. This was simply arbitrary, due to the limitations I noted with the Helix LT. Another option would be to use the Left the 1/4” out socket which defaults to mono. In either case, you would need to use a cable with a jack to XLR connectors, or possibly a DI box to patch it to your mixing board.

 

if you download the example preset, you can load it to check out the paths, here:

https://hxview.netlify.app

 

The Helix truly is an amazing piece of gear, but sometimes it really does pay to plan out your workflow beforehand, as it cannot do everything. As I said originally, some of this stuff is fine in theory, but in reality, be aware of the real world limitations of what your are trying to achieve.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[WGOWWGO]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:38 AM, datacommando said:

Hi,

 

As you don’t actually own a Helix LT unit, you might have guessed from my post, and the “snip” from @MusicLaw above, this is really pushing it to the limits, considering the limitations of the connections available. If you really need the flexibility shown in the video, you need to be using either the Helix floor or Rack devices.
 

Even with a Helix it is quite feasible to push it to the extreme. For example you asked, “would it be possible to put a split in the vocal path, insert a harmony and EQ block, then rejoin the original vocal path?” The short answer is “NO” - it is only possible to access 4 paths, and what you describe is not possible. Also, consider each path can only have 8 blocks, and each pair of paths use a single DSP chip. 

 

In my example preset all those blocks are mono. Stereo blocks require more processing power along with stereo output connections. Some amplifier models, reverbs and polyphonic blocks consume huge amounts of processing power. Some are so complex that they can use almost 100% of a single DSP.

 

Ah, I accidentally failed to mention that the preset I supplied was using Send 2 as the output. This was simply arbitrary, due to the limitations I noted with the Helix LT. Another option would be to use the Left the 1/4” out socket which defaults to mono. In either case, you would need to use a cable with a jack to XLR connectors, or possibly a DI box to patch it to your mixing board.

 

if you download the example preset, you can load it to check out the paths, here:

https://hxview.netlify.app

 

The Helix truly is an amazing piece of gear, but sometimes it really does pay to plan out your workflow beforehand, as it cannot do everything. As I said originally, some of this stuff is fine in theory, but in reality, be aware of the real world limitations of what your are trying to achieve.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

I checked online and some people advised using Helix Native to check by changing the compatibility settings to Helix LT/Floor. 

 

I found that the guitar and bass would be fine, but I started running out of power when I got to the vocal.

 

Maybe I could use my Boss VE-5 in a loop, but that would limit my input and output options. 

 

If there's anyone in South Korea willing to let me use their Helix for a couple of hours, let me know. I'll pay you back in coffee, beer, etc. 

[lou-kash]

On 7/3/2024 at 4:29 AM, WGOWWGO said:

I found that the guitar and bass would be fine, but I started running out of power when I got to the vocal.

 

I've been using my HX Stomp as a 4-channel mixer for an acoustic guitar, acoustic bass and two vocal mics already. No other devices involved, apart from a power amp and a speaker. It is possible, albeit admittedly awkward to set up, as I only have two paths on the Stomp, so each instrument/mic pair needs to be lined up in series, i.e. some settings will affect both at the same time. But… it's manageable because the Stomp has 4 analog inputs.

 

Looking at the Helix LT specs, you have only 3 analog inputs (plus 1 digital Variax input), so you would have to combine two of your channels into one.

[datacommando]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:29 AM, WGOWWGO said:

 

I checked online and some people advised using Helix Native to check by changing the compatibility settings to Helix LT/Floor. 

 

I found that the guitar and bass would be fine, but I started running out of power when I got to the vocal.

 

Maybe I could use my Boss VE-5 in a loop, but that would limit my input and output options. 

 

If there's anyone in South Korea willing to let me use their Helix for a couple of hours, let me know. I'll pay you back in coffee, beer, etc. 

 

Hi,

 

I also used HX Native to double check the “4Path LT.hlx” preset before uploading here, and I didn’t experience any “running out of power” on the vocal path. The only things that don’t show up in Native are the physical Send/Return ins and outs as Native is purely software. As you have already realised, you cannot patch in the BOSS VE-5, due to lack of input options.

 

I very quickly put together that example preset as a “proof of concept”, which was essentially to show how this could function at an absolute bare minimum. I didn’t even touch on “Snapshots” and assigning Stomps to Foot Switches. The blocks I used to construct the preset actually do create the signal flow you suggested, BUT if you went in to change any of them to one you particularly like, you could find that you very swiftly run out of DSP, and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Having looked at it once more, it would be possible to remove the second amp on  path 1B by moving the split to between the amp and cab on path 1A, but that would only slightly help out on the DSP working on those paths. Your original idea simply lists generic amp and fx block, whereas specifying each model could give a result that may not work at all.

 

As I mentioned previously, things like these require a lot of forethought, and planning. If you have the 15 day demo version of Helix Native, set it on the Helix compatibility mode and play around with creating some of your ideal setups and see how far you can push it before it tips over the edge. There is no substitute for real life testing.
 

Furthermore, good luck with finding someone in South Korea willing to assist, but please understand- a couple of hours will not even scratch the surface of trying to get to grips with a Helix, especially if you have no prior knowledge of working with one. If you’re lucky, a couple of days, or weeks, if not, a couple of months, or even years. I have been using my Helix since late 2015 and still surprise myself with things it can do, and even after all this time I’m really happy that those nice people at Line 6 added all those physical Send/Return options so I can patch in some of my external hardware that does things that are still not yet available in the Helix. Use the correct tool for the job, as sometime that small Swiss Army knife is not quite up to skinning the cat.

Hope this helps/makes sense.
 

 

[WGOWWGO]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:49 PM, datacommando said:

 

Hi,

 

I also used HX Native to double check the “4Path LT.hlx” preset before uploading here, and I didn’t experience any “running out of power” on the vocal path. The only things that don’t show up in Native are the physical Send/Return ins and outs as Native is purely software. As you have already realised, you cannot patch in the BOSS VE-5, due to lack of input options.

 

I very quickly put together that example preset as a “proof of concept”, which was essentially to show how this could function at an absolute bare minimum. I didn’t even touch on “Snapshots” and assigning Stomps to Foot Switches. The blocks I used to construct the preset actually do create the signal flow you suggested, BUT if you went in to change any of them to one you particularly like, you could find that you very swiftly run out of DSP, and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Having looked at it once more, it would be possible to remove the second amp on  path 1B by moving the split to between the amp and cab on path 1A, but that would only slightly help out on the DSP working on those paths. Your original idea simply lists generic amp and fx block, whereas specifying each model could give a result that may not work at all.

 

As I mentioned previously, things like these require a lot of forethought, and planning. If you have the 15 day demo version of Helix Native, set it on the Helix compatibility mode and play around with creating some of your ideal setups and see how far you can push it before it tips over the edge. There is no substitute for real life testing.
 

Furthermore, good luck with finding someone in South Korea willing to assist, but please understand- a couple of hours will not even scratch the surface of trying to get to grips with a Helix, especially if you have no prior knowledge of working with one. If you’re lucky, a couple of days, or weeks, if not, a couple of months, or even years. I have been using my Helix since late 2015 and still surprise myself with things it can do, and even after all this time I’m really happy that those nice people at Line 6 added all those physical Send/Return options so I can patch in some of my external hardware that does things that are still not yet available in the Helix. Use the correct tool for the job, as sometime that small Swiss Army knife is not quite up to skinning the cat.

Hope this helps/makes sense.
 

 

 

Thanks for the advice. 

 

Looking at inputs - if I use the Helix Floor, I could do the following:

Guitar pickup - guitar in 

Hex guitar pickup - aux in 

Microphone - XLR in

 

I could then put the Boss VE-5 in send/return 1 and bring it into the chain when needed.

I could also put my Digitech Drop pedal in send/return 2, if need be.

 

If I use the Helix LT, I could do the following

Guitar pickup - guitar in

Hex guitar pickup - return 1

Microphone - return 2

 

However, this means I would not have the ability to put the Boss VE-5 or Digitech Drop into a loop that can be brought in and out. 

 

My chains would then be the following:

 

Signal 1 > Courtesan Flange > Simple Delay > Mandarin Rocker > 10 band EQ > split paths as follows below

> 1A > 2x12 Mandarin 30 > 1/4 (right) out to mixing desk

> 1B>Volume > 1/4 (left) out to fx return of amp

 

Signal 2A  > Dual Pitch > LA Studio Comp > 10 band EQ > Mandarin Bass 200 amp and cab > LA Studio Comp > XLR (right) out to mixing desk

 

Signal 2B > Studio Tube preamp > 10 band EQ > ducked delay > send/return 1 to bring in Boss VE-5 for harmonies > XLR (left) out to mixing desk

 

So it is possible with the Helix Floor.

 

[datacommando]

On 7/3/2024 at 2:57 PM, WGOWWGO said:

 

Thanks for the advice. 

 

Looking at inputs - if I use the Helix Floor, I could do the following:

Guitar pickup - guitar in 

Hex guitar pickup - aux in 

Microphone - XLR in

 

I could then put the Boss VE-5 in send/return 1 and bring it into the chain when needed.

I could also put my Digitech Drop pedal in send/return 2, if need be.

 

If I use the Helix LT, I could do the following

Guitar pickup - guitar in

Hex guitar pickup - return 1

Microphone - return 2

 

However, this means I would not have the ability to put the Boss VE-5 or Digitech Drop into a loop that can be brought in and out. 

 

My chains would then be the following:

 

Signal 1 > Courtesan Flange > Simple Delay > Mandarin Rocker > 10 band EQ > split paths as follows below

> 1A > 2x12 Mandarin 30 > 1/4 (right) out to mixing desk

> 1B>Volume > 1/4 (left) out to fx return of amp

 

Signal 2A  > Dual Pitch > LA Studio Comp > 10 band EQ > Mandarin Bass 200 amp and cab > LA Studio Comp > XLR (right) out to mixing desk

 

Signal 2B > Studio Tube preamp > 10 band EQ > ducked delay > send/return 1 to bring in Boss VE-5 for harmonies > XLR (left) out to mixing desk

 

So it is possible with the Helix Floor.

 

 

Hi, again,

 

Please find attached 

 

4Path Helix.hlx

 

This is Helix preset created using the items that you mentioned in your last post.

 

I did say that this stuff takes a bit of thought and couple of things came to mind following on from your original post and how this has now evolved.

 

Your latest concept for a preset now appears to include a DigiTech Drop - O.K. you would need to use this in an FX Loop, because although Helix contains several poly pitch shifting options, these are the items that will guzzle your DSP. Therefore if you specifically need this effect it's probably less hassle to patch into an outboard hardware unit.  Note - Poly Pitch shifting is possibly best when placed first in the signal chain.

 

The second thing that would require some more checking is the idea of sticking the BOSS VE-5 into an FX Loop. As I understand it, the VE-5 expects a mic level (-40dBu) input on an XLR or TRS Jack. In fact, the Owner's Manual specifically states: "Do not connect the output of an effects processor or similar device to the MIC IN jack."  The Helix FX loop can be set to either Instrument or Line level therefore you would need to use a DI Box, or similar, to match the input needed or you might introduce distortion or even damage your VE. The output form the VE is also on XLR (-40dBu), and again this could probably be managed with a DI box. It also has a 48v Phantom Power available (likewise the Helix), be very carefully with Phantom Power as it is very easy to damage your equipment. Oh, yeah, the Guitar and Aux inputs may need to be played around with as the Guitar Input impedance can be managed either automatically, or manually, whereas the Aux Input is set on 10kOhm, and is generally used for active pickups. I also note that you have opted to use the Courtesan Flange and Simple delay before the Mandarin amp. Hmm... I would generally recommend that time based effects such as these are placed after the amp (& cab), especially one that can be as driven as the Mandarin, but hey each to their own, and there are no rules in the digital realm, whatever works for you.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

This stuff seem quite simple enough when you get the original idea, but there is usually quite a bit more involved.

 

 

 

[WGOWWGO]

On 7/4/2024 at 2:18 AM, datacommando said:

 

Hi, again,

 

Please find attached 

 

4Path Helix.hlx 23.79 kB · 0 downloads

 

This is Helix preset created using the items that you mentioned in your last post.

 

I did say that this stuff takes a bit of thought and couple of things came to mind following on from your original post and how this has now evolved.

 

Your latest concept for a preset now appears to include a DigiTech Drop - O.K. you would need to use this in an FX Loop, because although Helix contains several poly pitch shifting options, these are the items that will guzzle your DSP. Therefore if you specifically need this effect it's probably less hassle to patch into an outboard hardware unit.  Note - Poly Pitch shifting is possibly best when placed first in the signal chain.

 

The second thing that would require some more checking is the idea of sticking the BOSS VE-5 into an FX Loop. As I understand it, the VE-5 expects a mic level (-40dBu) input on an XLR or TRS Jack. In fact, the Owner's Manual specifically states: "Do not connect the output of an effects processor or similar device to the MIC IN jack."  The Helix FX loop can be set to either Instrument or Line level therefore you would need to use a DI Box, or similar, to match the input needed or you might introduce distortion or even damage your VE. The output form the VE is also on XLR (-40dBu), and again this could probably be managed with a DI box. It also has a 48v Phantom Power available (likewise the Helix), be very carefully with Phantom Power as it is very easy to damage your equipment. Oh, yeah, the Guitar and Aux inputs may need to be played around with as the Guitar Input impedance can be managed either automatically, or manually, whereas the Aux Input is set on 10kOhm, and is generally used for active pickups. I also note that you have opted to use the Courtesan Flange and Simple delay before the Mandarin amp. Hmm... I would generally recommend that time based effects such as these are placed after the amp (& cab), especially one that can be as driven as the Mandarin, but hey each to their own, and there are no rules in the digital realm, whatever works for you.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

This stuff seem quite simple enough when you get the original idea, but there is usually quite a bit more involved.

 

 

 

 

Here was me thinking I'd cracked it, but like you say, it is more involved than I originally anticipated. 

 

The more external pedals I put in loops, the further my idea gets from my initial aim, which was to simplify things into an all in one system. 

 

I think the main stumbling points (in my scenario) are the pitch blocks using so much DSP and a lack of vocal harmony effects. I feel like the other smaller niggles could be worked out. 

[datacommando]

On 7/4/2024 at 12:28 AM, WGOWWGO said:

 

Here was me thinking I'd cracked it, but like you say, it is more involved than I originally anticipated. 

 

The more external pedals I put in loops, the further my idea gets from my initial aim, which was to simplify things into an all in one system. 

 

I think the main stumbling points (in my scenario) are the pitch blocks using so much DSP and a lack of vocal harmony effects. I feel like the other smaller niggles could be worked out. 

 

Hi,

 

I’m a long time user of Line 6 tech, right from the old kidney bean POD, through the POD XT Live and HD500, along with 3 different Variax guitars, so believe me when I say that the Helix is probably the the best piece of gear I have ever bought.

 

The main thing to remember about any of the HX family of products is, they are primarily designed as guitar amp simulation and digital multi-fx units. Anything else that you can press them into doing is a bonus, and coupled with the fact that a full Helix can handle 4 stereo paths with stacks of effects, plus a plethora of ins and outs, lots of people think it is a total solution to their needs. Not necessarily so. It’s easy to be impressed by a YouTube video, showing 4 separate paths of audio processing, all at the same time. The thing is to be totally aware of the limitations of what is being shown. 
 

Many, many people work with these devices and utilise the choices available of being able to add other instruments, drum machine or vocals, but it requires a little more thought and planning. Check out the post above from @lou-kash who has had great success with multi-instrument setups using the HX Stomp.

 

It’s amazing how many folks have posted in here to complain about the built in looper. It’s not in there as a full blown performance looping solution for all occasions. Once again, Line 6 provided Send/Return FX loops for users to patch in their looping weapon of choice. For example I have various dedicated loopers for specific reasons - the BOSS RC-30, a Ditto X4 and a couple of others which do what I need. Prior to firmware v.3.15 which added stereo shimmer reverb, I used an external reverb with a shimmer and reverse reverb to suit my needs.

 

Essentially, what comes down to is - the Helix is amazing, but it cannot be all be all things to all men - don’t think of the Helix as a one stop solution. 
 

Hope this helps/makes sense.