Guitar harsh in IEMs

[trhx]

This isn't a Helix question, per se, but I think peeps here will understand better than on a mixer forum.

My Helix goes out stereo XLR straight to a UI24r mixer. I'm happy with the sound coming out of the mains. I've been using a small wedge monitor from one of the aux outputs, but I'm exploring IEMs. I'm trying out a pair of KZ ZS10 Pros. The overall sound is pretty good when playing songs from USB or from playing back multitrack recorded shows EXCEPT that the guitar is very brittle in the IEMs.

 

My guess is that I'm more or less simulating the effect of putting my ear right up against the center of the guitar speaker, whereas a wedge monitor is distanced a bit and mostly off axis.

 

Any tips for taming the guitar sound in the aux without messing with the sound going through the mains? AFAIK, I can only adjust EQ for my overall aux mix, not for specific channels so I know there will be some balancing between taming the guitar and not dampening the overall sound too much.

 

FYI, I have a wireless unit for the IEMs, but I'm doing all the setup straight from a headphone jack to remove the wireless from the equation.

 

Thanks for any suggestions.

[theElevators]

No such option unfortunately.  You can buy a simple EQ pedal, it could work if you are running your IEMs in mono: https://www.amazon.com/JOYO-6-Band-Electric-Equalizer-Provides/dp/B085QKS9LZ

[trhx]

Actually, it is possible to use one of the paths to send to the headphone output only, and to put EQ, etc in that path. You've reminded me that I've done that in the past and routed it to my second input in the wireless IEM transmitter (Yes, this is my second attempt at IEMs), which let me blend that guitar into my IEM with a lot more control.

 

Unfortunately, that would leave my harsh guitar in everyone else's aux so I prefer to figure out what I can do on my aux output so others can replicate if they want.

[waymda]

The UI24 allows you to patch physical inputs to multiple logical (or internal channels). So assuming you have spare channels you can patch your guitar inputs to an addition set of channels, set their aux send as pre-fader, pull the chanel fader out of the mains and use the aux send for just your IEM send (and/or other band members).  The UI24 is likely more flexible than you realise. Not sure if this guy covers this in his patching video, but he's a great resource 

 

 

However, if everyone wants their own eq'd version of your guitar or their inputs you're up for a lot of messing about and will run out of channels quickly.

 

I know nothing about the KZ ZS10 Pros, but at less than $70 AUD I wouldn't be expecting them to be great. When I first started using IEMs I really struggled with the sound, and balance on stage. My first decent set of fully molded 64 ears cost me more than I wanted to spend but the difference was/is phenomenal. I still have and use them occasionally some 8 years later even though they're my back-ups.

 

As someone who's always spent on gear, back line etc my post hoc rationalisation is what I spent on proper in-ears + my Helix is way less than I would have spent on a range of gear across the years, sounds better, and gives me a much more consistent on stage sound for performance (remember tweaking you amp at every evenue every time???).

 

So my advice FWIW is if you're want to go IEMs think of them as your back line and spend accordingly. 

 

 

[trhx]

Thanks. No one else has complained about my guitar sound in their IEMs, so either it's already less squeaky for them or they turn it down quite a bit. Routing the additional aux send is a great idea, so I'll check it out.

 

I get that the KZs are entry level, but studio recordings sound pretty good on them. IE, the guitars on them don't sound at all harsh. Wouldn't that indicate that the problem with my own guitar is something other than the KZs?

[waymda]

On 10/1/2024 at 1:15 PM, trhx said:

I get that the KZs are entry level, but studio recordings sound pretty good on them. IE, the guitars on them don't sound at all harsh. Wouldn't that indicate that the problem with my own guitar is something other than the KZs?

 

 Yes and no.

 

Yes:

• You will be much more critical bout how you hear yourself in any system/iems than the rest of the mix - its you, and you know how you want to sound
• The sound of your guitar coming straight to your ear through IEMs is substantially different to via a wedge ot other air moving system - you will also hear other ambient sound
• Using IEMs means you need a much better mix than you can get away with in stage with live sound - for example, when you move your head on stage the sound changes and you can move to find a balanced spot on stage - not so with IEMs, you get what you get

No:

• The quality of the IEMs will massively influence how you hear your sound - see the first point
• Generic IEMs don't provide a good seal so you will hear a weird mic of live stage sound with IEM direct. The live will include FoH, and stage sound and will generally be slightly muffled. It can also result in strange phasing issue due to tiny differences in the timing of the internal and external sounds hitting your ears
• IEMs that sound OK for produced recorded music do not always reproduce the sort of sounds you want/need to hear live on stage

TLDR - using IEMs is a massive change from live on stage sound and you need to learn what the compromises are, and the quality of your monitoring WILL impact on your experience. What works for hearing recorded music does not necessarily translate to working live.

[trhx]

On 10/1/2024 at 5:49 PM, waymda said:

Using IEMs means you need a much better mix than you can get away with in stage with live sound - for example, when you move your head on stage the sound changes and you can move to find a balanced spot on stage - not so with IEMs, you get what you get

Yes, this is why I ditched IEMs the first time I tried them - I like being able to move a bit to find a sweet spot.

 

I've managed to tame the shrillness, so that's an improvement but I'm still not sure if I'm going to be happier with it than the wedge. I have a little time to keep playing around with it before the next gig.

[waymda]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:25 AM, trhx said:

Yes, this is why I ditched IEMs the first time I tried them - I like being able to move a bit to find a sweet spot.

 

I've managed to tame the shrillness, so that's an improvement but I'm still not sure if I'm going to be happier with it than the wedge. I have a little time to keep playing around with it before the next gig.

 This likely doesn't help in the short term, but i reckon it took me close to 2 years to fully move to IEMs.

 

In my first move to modellers I tried valve power amps to cabs, specialised FRFR wedges, a JC120, 2 x Powercab+ you name it and I was never happy.

 

For IEMS I tried, wedges + IEMS, various generic IEMs, generic with custom molds, custom molds, custom molds + ambient mics, finally sensaphonics with custom molds and built in ambient mics.

 

The sensaphonics are expensive and were worth it for enjoying playing. But the real key was running a silent stage, with an e-drumkit and largely DI'd bass and the UI24 to manage my own mix. As I mentioned earlier the 64 ears are still great, with this set-up/band - and 2 years working with them to refine what I need.

 

Moral of my story- it takes  lot of time and effort to find what works for you - my incentive was/is I sing and play guitar in a 3 piece so hearing whats really going on and not screaming to be heard made i worthwhile in the long run.

 

Happy to share any of that journey if it helps you get what you need/want easier/quicker.

[trhx]

On 10/2/2024 at 4:39 AM, waymda said:

The sensaphonics are expensive and were worth it for enjoying playing. But the real key was running a silent stage, with an e-drumkit and largely DI'd bass and the UI24 to manage my own mix. As I mentioned earlier the 64 ears are still great, with this set-up/band - and 2 years working with them to refine what I need.

Thanks. We've only had e-drums in the band and everything goes direct to PA, so my wedge monitor has been the only obstacle to a silent stage.

 

I tested running the Helix headphone out directly into the 2nd channel of my wireless IEM transmitter, and I put an EQ in that path with the high cut at 5kh. That makes a huge difference, and I'm able to blend the guitar from the mixer aux in if I need more high end. I'll get a chance to try this at next week's band practice.

 

My only issue now is the cheapo Phenyx wireless set. The overall sound is fine, but there's a lot of white noise. I tried the IFI Audio IEMatch, but all it did was attenuate the level to the point that it's almost unusable.  The other guitar player has a Shure PSM 300, so I'm going to try it. If that is much quieter, I'll upgrade to it or a similar rig.

[waymda]

On 10/4/2024 at 4:11 AM, trhx said:

I tested running the Helix headphone out directly into the 2nd channel of my wireless IEM transmitter, and I put an EQ in that path with the high cut at 5kh

 

Something I hadn't thought of and just remembered. I run both low and hi-pass EQ on my guitar channels on the UI24, helping it sit in the mix and improve clarity, so that will be going to my IEM feed. Not sure the frequencies and not near it, but likely having a similar impact.

[boynigel]

dumb question, but just in case...

 

your IEM's aren't slipping out on you, are they?  I notice this when i get sweaty and mine slip out a bit, taking bass frequencies with them in the process and leaving all the highs.

[trhx]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:20 PM, boynigel said:

dumb question, but just in case...

 

your IEM's aren't slipping out on you, are they?  I notice this when i get sweaty and mine slip out a bit, taking bass frequencies with them in the process and leaving all the highs.

Not a dumb question at all. I've had that happen, but no problem with that now.