PC212 LF Raw vs Speaker Models EQ curve

[rlagos144]

Hi PC212+ user here, What are the EQ differences between LF RAW and the speaker models? It seems the LF RAW has more bass and hi frecuencies than the speaker models (speaker sims sounds good but with a lot more mid frecuencias and less hi and low)

 

The feel of the Lf Raw IMHO is more "real" than the speaker models and I want to achieve that with the speaker models.

 

Regards.

[rd2rk]

AFAIK, LF RAW is the actual un-EQ'd special design Eminence speaker without the coaxial tweeter engaged.

The speaker emulations are that RAW speaker, without the coaxial tweeter engaged, EQ'd to sound like a specific GUITAR speaker.

 

Nobody outside of L6 knows the actual EQ curves applied to obtain the "emulations". 

Likewise, nobody outside of L6 and Eminence knows the technical specifications of the speakers in the Powercabs, but I believe that they were designed to be somewhat more full range than typical guitar speakers in order to facilitate the EQ curves required for the emulations and to get the best sound possible in FRFR mode. That would explain the perception that they have more highs/lows than the emulations.

 

Just like dedicated GUITAR speakers in real dedicated GUITAR cabinets. 

 

There's no way to know how accurate the emulations are without replacing the special design Eminence speakers with the real-world speaker being emulated because the cabinet design matters!

 

Bottom line - choose the mode/emulation that comes closest to the sound that you're after and use EQ to fine tune it to taste.

 

[rlagos144]

On 1/6/2025 at 2:09 PM, rd2rk said:

AFAIK, LF RAW is the actual un-EQ'd special design Eminence speaker without the coaxial tweeter engaged.

The speaker emulations are that RAW speaker, without the coaxial tweeter engaged, EQ'd to sound like a specific GUITAR speaker.

 

Nobody outside of L6 knows the actual EQ curves applied to obtain the "emulations". 

Likewise, nobody outside of L6 and Eminence knows the technical specifications of the speakers in the Powercabs, but I believe that they were designed to be somewhat more full range than typical guitar speakers in order to facilitate the EQ curves required for the emulations and to get the best sound possible in FRFR mode. That would explain the perception that they have more highs/lows than the emulations.

 

Just like dedicated GUITAR speakers in real dedicated GUITAR cabinets. 

 

There's no way to know how accurate the emulations are without replacing the special design Eminence speakers with the real-world speaker being emulated because the cabinet design matters!

 

Bottom line - choose the mode/emulation that comes closest to the sound that you're after and use EQ to fine tune it to taste.

 

Thanks! that would mean that the difference between LF RAW frecuencies and speaker sims is that the LF RAW has way more frecuencies (hi and low) than a normal guitar speaker?

 

Also, do you think that the speaker sims are like a real speaker soundwise (frecuencies, thump etc)? I dont care that they sound like the real deal but just like a real speaker in a cab.

 

[rd2rk]

Yes, more. Way more? IDK. All that matters is that YOU like the way it sounds.

Yes. Because it IS a real speaker in a cab. All that matters is if YOU like the way it sounds.

 

Keep in mind that any Guitar speaker in a small open back 1x12 cab will sound different than the same speaker in a Mesa Thiele cab which will sound different than the same speaker in an oversized PV cab which will sound different than the same speaker in a Powercab PC112 cab which will sound different than the emulation of that speaker in the Powercab Cabinet. The end result is the sum of the speaker AND the cab.

 

All that matters is if YOU like the way it sounds. I like the way it sounds.

 

Final notes - I have had BOTH the PC112+ and (currently) the PC212+.

They are NOT designed for bedroom levels. I find that 75db is about the place where they start to sound good. Louder is better.

Google Fletcher-Munson.

Also - what sounds "middy" when playing solo at home will usually cut better when live with a full band than a "scooped" cab, and EQ requirements will vary with the venue. That is the purpose of the GLOBAL EQ in Helix.

[rlagos144]

On 1/6/2025 at 3:56 PM, rd2rk said:

Yes, more. Way more? IDK. All that matters is that YOU like the way it sounds.

Yes. Because it IS a real speaker in a cab. All that matters is if YOU like the way it sounds.

 

Keep in mind that any Guitar speaker in a small open back 1x12 cab will sound different than the same speaker in a Mesa Thiele cab which will sound different than the same speaker in an oversized PV cab which will sound different than the same speaker in a Powercab PC112 cab which will sound different than the emulation of that speaker in the Powercab Cabinet. The end result is the sum of the speaker AND the cab.

 

All that matters is if YOU like the way it sounds. I like the way it sounds.

 

Final notes - I have had BOTH the PC112+ and (currently) the PC212+.

They are NOT designed for bedroom levels. I find that 75db is about the place where they start to sound good. Louder is better.

Google Fletcher-Munson.

Also - what sounds "middy" when playing solo at home will usually cut better when live with a full band than a "scooped" cab, and EQ requirements will vary with the venue. That is the purpose of the GLOBAL EQ in Helix.

Thanks! yes i have the 212 and when I play it loud it shines! I really like how the speaker sims sound but is just my obsesive side that wants confirmation that they sound like a real 212 cab with speakers and not "hifi".

 

Also do you apply any kind of EQ for the speakers models, or use them just how they are?

 

thanks for all your help!

[rd2rk]

IME, the "hifi" sound is a result of engaging the coax tweeter. When I (infrequently) decide to try FRFR mode using one of the many thousands of IRs that I wasted my money on, I cut the HF Trim on the PC by a couple of db and the IRs become MUCH less "hifi" sounding.

 

I try the speaker emulations until I find one that sounds good with the (helix) amp I'm using, then I use the amp's tone-stack just like I would ITRW.

FWIW, I do not have an OC personality. It baffles me when I read on the forums that it takes someone HOURS to "dial in" a Helix preset. It takes me minutes.

This may be a result of having started performing with bands in 1963, when our options were "Plug it in, turn it on, ROCK OUT!".  :-)

 

 

[rlagos144]

On 1/6/2025 at 6:33 PM, rd2rk said:

IME, the "hifi" sound is a result of engaging the coax tweeter. When I (infrequently) decide to try FRFR mode using one of the many thousands of IRs that I wasted my money on, I cut the HF Trim on the PC by a couple of db and the IRs become MUCH less "hifi" sounding.

 

I try the speaker emulations until I find one that sounds good with the (helix) amp I'm using, then I use the amp's tone-stack just like I would ITRW.

FWIW, I do not have an OC personality. It baffles me when I read on the forums that it takes someone HOURS to "dial in" a Helix preset. It takes me minutes.

This may be a result of having started performing with bands in 1963, when our options were "Plug it in, turn it on, ROCK OUT!".  :-)

 

 

Thank you rd2rk for sharing your amazing experience, i only use FRFR at home with low volumes

just to finish and dont bother you anymore! so you say that PC212 speaker sims (any of them) at high volume is the same experience as using a poweramp with 212 cab? (no matter the speaker type?).

 

regards!

 

 

[rd2rk]

No.

 

If, by "experience" you mean "feel" then, NO they won't all "feel" the same.

If by, "experience" you mean "sounds like hifi vs AITR", then it totally depends on YOUR definition of "hifi" vs "AITR".

 

You're looking for a definitive, objective answer to a question that has only ambiguous, subjective answers.

 

I say again - "All that matters is if YOU like the way it sounds. I like the way it sounds."

 

EDIT: Some days I think my PC212+ sounds like lollipop, so I use my Catalyst100 instead. Sounds GREAT. Go figure!

 

 

[amsdenj]

I have compared a Powercab 212 in FRFR/RAW mode with a Celestion Cream Back speaker using the same amp model. They sounded pretty similar. I suspect the speakers in Powercab are more like guitar amp speakers than hi-fi speakers, partly for reliability, power handling, and to produce the levels for live guitar use. 

[lpeacock1]

I’ve been using 2 x Powercab 112+ with my Helix for a couple of years now with varying results until recently.

I took Amsdenj’s advice and disabled cabs and IRs and only use LFRAW. What a difference. The Helix amps have come alive. I also have Tonex integrated into Helix for amps that Helix doesn’t have. They sound fantastic. Talk about amp-in-the-room sound and feel.

This was exactly what I was looking for.

In addition, I modified Jason Sadites Helix template to work with this configuration and I couldn’t be happier. Thanks Amsdenj for evangelizing this approach! It is simply fantastic. You should do a YouTube video on this since it doesn’t seem like L6 is interested in the Powercab any more. With the new Tonex Cab coming out soon, it might light a fire under them for some updates.