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Some questions about the helix's DSP power and the selling point


wenpaul
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1.I'm quite concerned about the running speed of helix's DSP. There is only a dual-DSP, however, AXE FXII has two dual-DSP, so I want to know that helix 's DSP speed is higher than the AXE FXII's DSP speed?The DSP  more powerful it means that the details of the simulation will be more and leading to the sound will be more true?

 

2.“This level of dynamic circuit detail extends into areas like power supply ripple, individual tube sag, and control over B+ voltages.â€Simulated of these tubes details like“sag,BIAS,B+† already can  found on HD500x.However, these are still as helix‘s selling point, do you have any improvements to it?

 

3.The dynamic range of the AD/DA converter is as high as 123dB, and I want to know that the human ear can perceive the difference between 123dB and 114dB except for the noise?Has a great influence on the quality of the sound?Because I often heard that the dynamic range of the DA converter is generally sufficient to reach 100dB.

 

Is there anyone who answers me? Very grateful!

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In response to question 1, let me quote Digital Igloo

 

Helix is running two ADSP-21469 SHARCs at 450MHz, not TigerSHARCs. AxeFX II is running two much more powerful (and expensive) TigerSHARCs at 600MHz, the upcoming AX8 has two 21469 SHARCs at 450MHz (same as Helix), and FX8 is running one 21469 SHARC at 450MHz.

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1. Actually, the Axe FX II only has two processors as well. It's using two of the more expensive TigerSHARC chips as opposed to the Helix's two SHARC chips. The TigerSHARC is 600 Mhz, and the SHARC in the Helix is 450 Mhz. That doesn't really mean anything except that, yes, the TigerSHARC does have more DSP available than than the regular SHARC. I suspect that for the amp/cab modeling, a lot of the DSP in the Axe FX is used up by Fractals "Ultra Hi-Res" IR loading. Interestingly enough, the Fractal AX-8 will be using the same exact chip that's in the Helix.

 

2. The amp modeling on the Helix is completely new, and not simply an update of the HD modeling. The one kind of exception to that is new HD models that were released in the model packs. Those models were actually Helix models that were ported down to the HD.

 

3. Charlie is correct. The dynamic range isn't really about what the ear can perceive. It's about the fidelity available when recording and processing the signal.

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1. Actually, the Axe FX II only has two processors as well. It's using two of the more expensive TigerSHARC chips as opposed to the Helix's two SHARC chips. The TigerSHARC is 600 Mhz, and the SHARC in the Helix is 450 Mhz. That doesn't really mean anything except that, yes, the TigerSHARC does have more DSP available than than the regular SHARC. I suspect that for the amp/cab modeling, a lot of the DSP in the Axe FX is used up by Fractals "Ultra Hi-Res" IR loading. Interestingly enough, the Fractal AX-8 will be using the same exact chip that's in the Helix.

 

2. The amp modeling on the Helix is completely new, and not simply an update of the HD modeling. The one kind of exception to that is new HD models that were released in the model packs. Those models were actually Helix models that were ported down to the HD.

 

3. Charlie is correct. The dynamic range isn't really about what the ear can perceive. It's about the fidelity available when recording and processing the signal.

 
Thank you for your answer, I still have a question, now the helix‘s amps and cabs and the number of effect are relatively small, the follow-up can increase the number of these blocks by upgrading the firmware?
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  • 7 years later...
On 10/28/2015 at 1:17 AM, phil_m said:

1. Actually, the Axe FX II only has two processors as well. It's using two of the more expensive TigerSHARC chips as opposed to the Helix's two SHARC chips. The TigerSHARC is 600 Mhz, and the SHARC in the Helix is 450 Mhz. That doesn't really mean anything except that, yes, the TigerSHARC does have more DSP available than than the regular SHARC. I suspect that for the amp/cab modeling, a lot of the DSP in the Axe FX is used up by Fractals "Ultra Hi-Res" IR loading. Interestingly enough, the Fractal AX-8 will be using the same exact chip that's in the Helix.

The Helix Floor/Rack and LT are still using 2023 in two ADSP-21469 SHARCs at 450MHz. The current DSP from the same brand with similar pricing to 2015 is the ADSP-21569 SHARC+ running @ 1Ghz and much more efficient even at the same Mhz.

 

It would be very simple to update to the same brand current DSP and make a minor software update to go to other brands DSP. Very likely the current PSU would be more than enough, if not an easy spec upgrade and a modern heatsink on the DSP chips plus some memory. Other companies have upgraded their hardware but Line 6 wants to charge us the same price for 8 year old hardware when we are in the market for a new unit in 2023. 
 
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Frankly I find these DSP spec comparisons a little bit silly given the purpose of DSP which is simply to do digital signal manipulations in a real time processing setting.  The purpose is to transform a digital signal representation of the results of a given (usually analog) circuit.  DSP limitations aren't typically about the quality or precision of the transformation (although it could be in some cases) but rather the amount of latency in that transformation given this it meant to be used in a real time signal processing environment.  If the transformations are reasonably accurate, faster transformations won't likely make them MORE accurate in any distinguishable way, but it could reasonably result in less latency allowing for more transformations.

 

In practice none of this affects me since I never run low on DSP because I use the DSP efficiently and have for over 8 years.  In my opinion and practices adding faster or more DSP only services the needs of people that don't use the DSP efficiently.

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On 1/27/2023 at 7:00 AM, AlienSexGod said:

The Helix Floor/Rack and LT are still using 2023 in two ADSP-21469 SHARCs at 450MHz. The current DSP from the same brand with similar pricing to 2015 is the ADSP-21569 SHARC+ running @ 1Ghz and much more efficient even at the same Mhz.

 

It would be very simple to update to the same brand current DSP and make a minor software update to go to other brands DSP. Very likely the current PSU would be more than enough, if not an easy spec upgrade and a modern heatsink on the DSP chips plus some memory. Other companies have upgraded their hardware but Line 6 wants to charge us the same price for 8 year old hardware when we are in the market for a new unit in 2023. 
 

 

 

Moving to 21569 means redesigning the entire board and a good part of the software framework. Isn't really like swapping the cpu on your PC motherboard.

 

Said that, I believe there would be a solid market for a Helix MKII.

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On 1/27/2023 at 12:00 AM, AlienSexGod said:

The Helix Floor/Rack and LT are still using 2023 in two ADSP-21469 SHARCs at 450MHz. The current DSP from the same brand with similar pricing to 2015 is the ADSP-21569 SHARC+ running @ 1Ghz and much more efficient even at the same Mhz.

 

It would be very simple to update to the same brand current DSP and make a minor software update to go to other brands DSP. Very likely the current PSU would be more than enough, if not an easy spec upgrade and a modern heatsink on the DSP chips plus some memory. Other companies have upgraded their hardware but Line 6 wants to charge us the same price for 8 year old hardware when we are in the market for a new unit in 2023. 
 

It’s not really that simple. It means a good bit of redesign, and it means updating the DSP tables for an updated device. It would add a good bit of complication to preset sharing and the Marketplace, as it’s possible that presets created on a “turbo” Helix or whatever might not work on the original…

 

Anyway, I don’t think Line 6 has any plans for these sorts of incremental upgrades. Also, consider that Line 6 just gave everyone what essentially is a free DSP upgrade with the way the new cab and IR blocks are processed in the 3.50 update. The new single cab block uses about 10% of the DSP of what the Legacy cab block used, and the same sort of DSP savings goes for IRS as well.

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