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Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by sanctus-diavolos on 2011-01-28 05:29:31

Hello! What settings must be set in POD HD500 when 4 cable method is used for best results? I mean which output settings (studio direct or others); usual amp models or amp models with "pre" label; where should I set fx loop in signal chain - before amp model or after?

Now, my physical signal chain looks like that: Guitar->POD HD500 "guitar in" -> POD HD500 "Fx Send' into stompboxes and tube preamp "input" -> tube preamp "send" into PODHD500 "fx return left" -> POD HD500 "output left" into tube preamp "return" -> tube preamp "output" to "return" of my 60W Combo.

Thank you!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Rowbi on 2011-01-28 05:36:05

the 4 cable method is a way of using an FX pedal to give you some OD/gain/boost FX infront of your tube amp's preamp, and then to put some time based FX in the loop of your tube amp, like delay and reverb.

if you want to use the amp models in your POD HD500, then the 4CM is not the best way to do it.

if you do decide to turn off the amp models on the POD, you should use studio mode, and then you may want to play with the FX loop send and return levels on your POD to get those levels right.  i would suggest you would need the FX loop at line level but reduce the send level to -14db to balance the instrument level in on your amp and the line level fx send on your amp.

if you want to use the POD's amp sims, set it to combo power amp in the output mode, then on the switches, select live (not amp) and live(not studio) and use the pre models.  then connect the output of your POD to the fx return on your tube amp.

is that what you wanted to know?



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by phil_m on 2011-01-28 05:43:51

Well, if you're using the 4CM, you aren't really going to be using the  POD's amp/cab modeling.  The whole idea behind the 4CM is to use your  amp's preamp and power amp and use the POD for effects in front of the  amp's preamp and in the amp's loop.  So where you put the FX loop in  your signal chain really depends on how many effects you want before  your amp's input and how many you want in the loop.  So, let's say you  want a wah, compressor, and OD effect in front of your amp and two  modulations, a delay, and reverb in the loop (which, with the FX loop  block would put you at the 8 effect limit).  You'd just put the FX loop  block after the OD and before the first modulation effect.  As far the  settings for the FX loop, you'll have to mess around to see what works  best with your amp, but I'd try it with the switch on stomp at first  with the send and return both at 0dB.  You might find you actually need  to boost the send a little and lower the return level.  I don't know for  sure, it varies from amp to amp.  The other thing to remember is that  all these settings are saved on a patch per patch basis, so once you've  found settings that work, I'd keep the patch as a template.

Now the other thing you can do is actually bypass your amp's preamp  section in some patches and use the POD's amp and cab modeling.  What  you're actually doing is just going through the POD's output into your  amp's effects return.  To do this, you would actually set you patch up  without the effects loop block, and just create a  regular patch with  whatever amp/cab you want.  You'd want to have the output mode on the  POD set to combo power amp.  This output mode should work OK for both  scenarios I described.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by sanctus-diavolos on 2011-01-28 06:02:01

"if you want to use the POD's amp sims, set it to combo power amp in the output mode, then on the switches, select live (not amp) and live(not studio) and use the pre models.  then connect the output of your POD to the fx return on your tube amp."

I did not understand what is "live"?? May be You mean "line" position of 1/4" out trigger and "line" position (not "stomp") of Fx return trigger?

Yes, that is what i wanted to know.. But can you, if it is possible, write whole signal chain from guitar to Combo with all connections and settings I should to set, please? For prevention of mistakes...  My goal is to use my tubepreamp (there are clean and drive channels in my tube preamp) for tube clean sound with pod effects and for tube drive for increasing gain of Amp sims.. So, I need to know where in virtual POD HD signal chain should be the Fx loop..

Thank You for quick answering!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by phil_m on 2011-01-28 06:05:32

I think Rowbi may have been thinking about the HD400 with that comment.  The HD400 actually has a hardware switch to switch the output modes.  On the HD500, switching the output modes is done entirely in the setup menu.  As far the level for 1/4" outs, you would actually want to set that to "line".  That was something I forgot to mention in my reply below.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-28 06:14:58

Hi

The benefits of physically wiring your HD500 into your amp using the 4 cable method are:

  1. You can use the sounds of just your amp
  2. You can combine the pre-amp of your amp with the effects and power amp of your amp
  3. You can use the HD500 amp modelling and FX and completely ignore your amp's pre-amp

With regard to the HD500 output settings, you would set the AMP/LINE switch to the left of the expression pedal to LINE and you would choose from:

Combo Front

Combo Pwr Amp

Stack Front

Stack Pwr Amp

Dependent on the type of amp you have.

Wire your guitar, the HD500 and amp together as follows:

Guitar > HD500 Input > HD500 FX Send (using a mono cable) > Amp front input.  Amp FX Send > HD500 L/Mono Return.  HD500 Left Out > Amp FX Return

To hear just the sounds of your amp:

To just hear the sounds of your amp you would need a NULL preset to be set up in your HD500 - meaning no FX or Amp modelling.  The POD will just route your amp's preamp signal through to the power amp stage.  There may be some slight coloration doing this as you will be passing the signal through the HD500's circuitry.

How?  Set up a blank preset which has NO effects EXCEPT the FX Loop set to 100% output and 100% mix - you may need to adjust these levels to achieve similar levels to your amp with nothing plugged in.  Make sure the FX Loop is turned ON on the HD500.  Also ensure there are no amp models loaded.  IF your amp's FX loop is switchable, you may be able to bypass the bulk of the HD500's circuitry by simply bypassing the HD500 in the amp's loop (but your guitar will still go via the input of the HD500 before it gets to the front input on the guitar amp)

To use the HD500's FX with your amp's pre-amp and power amp:

How? Set up an HD500 preset with NO amp or cab models loaded.  For an example put a Wah at the start of the chain followed by any distortion FX you want say Screamer.  Follow this with the FX Loop effect so it's placed BEFORE the mixer block.  After the mixer block place modulation, delay and reverb for example.  Make sure the FX Loop is ON and the Mix level is set to 100%

To use the HD500's full modelling feature set and your amp's Power Amp only:

How? Set up the HD500 as you would normally with Wah and Distortion type FX before the amp block/mixer block.  Add in an amp model of your choice.  Add in Modulation, Delay and Reverb or whatever after the Mixer block, But DON'T include the FX Loop effect anywhere in this signal chain.

Note:  The FX Loop isn't traditionally what I would term an 'effect' but for the purposes of this it behaves like an effect and falls within the FX group in the HD500, so that';s why I have referred to it as an 'effect'.

Nick

Message was edited by: nickmattocks

Blimey.  You have got to be quick around here  LOL - I see Rowbi and Phil got several replies in as I was composing my response.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Rowbi on 2011-01-28 06:19:36

phil_m wrote:

I think Rowbi may have been thinking about the HD400 with that comment.  The HD400 actually has a hardware switch to switch the output modes.  On the HD500, switching the output modes is done entirely in the setup menu.  As far the level for 1/4" outs, you would actually want to set that to "line".  That was something I forgot to mention in my reply below.

yeah my bad.  I was only reading that in the HD500 manual recently, so I should have known better



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by sanctus-diavolos on 2011-01-28 06:38:04

Thank you all for answers! So, using tubepreamp and POD Amp Sims simultaneously is a bad idea, right??

Ok, then i will be create some presets with fx loop for my tubepreamp sound and some presets without it...

But it is strange, that the method when it would be desirable to use both amplifiers (real and virtual) is not described anywhere... I mean, some of the guitarists connect one amp head into another for achieving big distortion =))) Or maybe I am wrong..



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-28 06:45:31

Well - if you use the sound of your tube preamp along with amp modelling from the HD500 you'll be overlaying your amp's natural sound with the models from the HD500 and that might give you either a fantastic new sound or it might give you some totally unexpected results

There's no hard and fast rules, but normally you wouldn't want to be mixing the core sound of the amp and the modelling of a unit like the HD500 IMHO

I'll leave it up to you to experiment with your own sound and indeed you may find mixing the sound of the amp with the HD500's amps does some great stuff for you.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by vcuomo on 2011-01-28 19:23:39

[QUOTE]

To use the HD500's full modelling feature set and your amp's Power Amp only:

How? Set up the HD500 as you would normally with Wah and Distortion type FX before the amp block/mixer block.  Add in an amp model of your choice.  Add in Modulation, Delay and Reverb or whatever after the Mixer block, But DON'T include the FX Loop effect anywhere in this signal chain.

Note:  The FX Loop isn't traditionally what I would term an 'effect' but for the purposes of this it behaves like an effect and falls within the FX group in the HD500, so that';s why I have referred to it as an 'effect'.

Nick

[/QUOTE]

This does not sound correct.  I believe you NEED the FX Loop effect to be in the signal chain.  That's the way I do it, and it works fine - I'll try it without the FX Loop and see what happens, but I believe that when I tried it before the effects and the Master Volume did not work correctly.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-29 04:19:25

vcuomo wrote:

[QUOTE]

To use the HD500's full modelling feature set and your amp's Power Amp only:

How? Set up the HD500 as you would normally with Wah and Distortion type FX before the amp block/mixer block.  Add in an amp model of your choice.  Add in Modulation, Delay and Reverb or whatever after the Mixer block, But DON'T include the FX Loop effect anywhere in this signal chain.

Note:  The FX Loop isn't traditionally what I would term an 'effect' but for the purposes of this it behaves like an effect and falls within the FX group in the HD500, so that';s why I have referred to it as an 'effect'.

Nick

[/QUOTE]

This does not sound correct.  I believe you NEED the FX Loop effect to be in the signal chain.  That's the way I do it, and it works fine - I'll try it without the FX Loop and see what happens, but I believe that when I tried it before the effects and the Master Volume did not work correctly.

Hi

It is correct because in that scenario you don't want to be using the amp's pre-amp at all and you want to go straight through the HD500 directly to your amp's power amp section.  Remember though that different amps have different ways of managing their FX loops.  Marshall JVM and TSL FX loops are switchable from the amp and the Spider Valve series amps just have a Pre-Amp out and a Power Amp In which is not switchable for example from the amp.  I have a Marshall Jubliee 25/50 spec 2554 amp which has an FX loop but it works differently to the JVM and TSL nd comes before the Tone Stack and I could imagine that amp wouldn't behave the same way as the others.  Depending on the amp you are using your mileage may vary I guess.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by vcuomo on 2011-01-29 13:12:58

I hear 'ya, but if you don't include the Loop FX in the POD's signal chain then you won't be using the 4CM method.  All that will be used is the POD's output (L mono) to the guitar amp's effects return and straight into the power amp.  Which, BTW, is the method I use - works great for me (only two cables are necessary on stage - guitar to POD, POD to my amp's effects return; well, three really because you also need the POD's power cable ), and it sounds great as long as you only use the PRE amp models and have the system output configured for POWER AMP.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-29 13:32:09

Hi

That illustration is one of the three I outlined on how you can do proper 4 cable method connectivity and how you can effectively bypass the amp's pre-amp, which only is 4CM by dint of the way the cables remain connected, and perhaps I didn't make that clear.  It is simply an outline of three ways to get the best of all the options without having to make any changes to how the HD500 is connected to the amp.  The third method which you have picked up on is obviously technically nothing more than a standard two cable method.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by vcuomo on 2011-01-29 14:01:33

True - and I guess what I'm trying to say (poorly, I must admit) is that without inserting the Loop FX in the POD's signal chain it's not possible to use the amp's preamp, so there's no point to connecting the other two cables at all.

And now I think I've beat this poor horse to death!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by sanctus-diavolos on 2011-01-30 04:06:47

I've got another qestion! In my preset without FX loop I use Amp sim. And when I set chorus and delay after mixer - it raise the output volume. But when I do the same in preset with FX loop - 4method cables (without Amp sim) - the output volume doesn't raise. Is it normal? And how can I control output level of mods and delays after mixer? Thanks.

PS: My output set - Combo Pwr Amp



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-30 04:18:45

Hi

I haven't specifically tested your exact scenario, but certainly I have noticed that certain effects behave a little differently dependent on where you place them PRE or POST amp model and from my own observations with things like Delay and Chorus I would accept this as 'normal'.  The amp model will tend to exercise some compression  on FX that are placed PRE and will have a tendency to give the input to the effect a higher level  when placed POST - remember that any FX placed POST are placed after the amp and speaker emulation, so yes I guess the behaviour you're seeing is 'normal'

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by sanctus-diavolos on 2011-01-30 04:45:31

Thank you, Nick! I know about raising input level of POST effects, but I was confused by it because on Pod XT live (my previous processor) there is no raised output level in the same situation.. But it is not bad.. I think, I can live with it



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-30 04:50:58

I'm not suggesting the behaviour is necessarily convenient, but that in this type of scenario it is probably what you/we should expect, and as you say it can be lived with and in many cases the MIX control deals with it effectively.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by jcopeland1 on 2011-05-09 18:29:01

All sorry to hijack but will this method work with the HD 400 also?  I am using a Hot rod deluxe fender amp with it and thought this would give me a lot of versatility.

Thx!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-10 04:22:42

No worries - it's an old thread anyway.

I don't have an HD400, so whilst the 4 cable method itself should work with the HD400, you don't have the same options with its FX loop placement or inclusion as you do with the HD500 and obviously I can't test anything to confirm or deny 100% that it will work in exactly the same way as the HD500 does.

I'm also not familiar with the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe or more specifically your Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (there are different models) I'm not sure whether it has a serial or parallel/serial FX loop, in which case if it doesn't we might as well stop right here as 4CM won't be possible. I know at least that some Fender Hot Rod Deluxe amps have an FX Loop (sorry I've been caught out before with some Fender amps appearing to have an FX loop when in fact depending on the exact model, some don't LOL), so let's assume that yours does have an FX Loop - obviously you'll know your own amp

With the HD500 you can simply not include an FX Loop and this effectively gives you the same result as a traditional 2 cable connection method with the output of the HDx00 connected directly to the power amp section of the host amp; proper 4CM connectivity by turning the FX Loop on and disabling amp modelling in the HD500, and; near NULL routing capability so you just hear the sound of the raw amp with nothing added by the HD500 (now that should be taken as meaning you are using DSP bypass in the HD500 rather than True Bypass as the signal has to pass through the HD500 even though no FX or amp modelling are being applied) whereas with the HD400 the FX Loop is (I believe) always in circuit at the same point in the signal chain.

The HD400 has these FX slots permanently in place before the FX loop:

  • Noise Gate
  • Volume
  • Wah
  • Distortion

Then, after the FX Loop:

  • Modulation
  • Delay
  • Reverb
  • AMP model

I know on the HD400 you have an FX Only option, but I believe this to be either always ON or always OFF and is global rather than on a per preset basis. Here's what I think you should be able to do with the HD400 wired as if for 4CM, but not guaranteed as I can't test.

  • With amp modelling in the HD400 ON but the FX Loop OFF (bypassed) you should be able to effectively go from your guitar to the HD400 input, through the whole signal chain and out to your amp's power amp - effectively the same as connecting the HD400 normally - as in 2 cable method
  • With the HD400 switched to FX Only mode (a hard wired switch I believe) you turn amp modelling OFF globally (I think) and you can use the raw sound of your amp but with the HD400 acting as purely an FX unit

Here's what you may be able to do in some way, but I am inclined to think not so easily as with the HD500 if you can't control whether amp modelling is switched OFF or ON by a simple per preset setting.

  • With amp modelling in the HD400 OFF but the FX Loop ON you should be able to use the HD400 in proper 4CM mode with the host amp providing all pre-amp and power amp functionality - BUT I'm not 100% sure whether you have the option of NO amp model on a per preset basis in the HD400 like you do in the HD500! Looking at HD400 Edit it doesn't appear you do have the option of NO AMP or even the option of AMP bypass, so I don't believe this option is viable without you bending down to the unit and switching to FX Only mode
  • Again - I'm not sure on this one: If you had the option of NO AMP in the HD400, you can certainly turn off all the FX in a saved preset but you would always have the Volume Pedal and Gate in the signal chain, so whilst you can't really create a true NULL preset like you can in the HD500, you may be able to work around it by using a clean amp model with almost no coloration.

I know the HD400 doesn't have the flexibility of the HD500 with ways in which you can use the 4CM, but sorry, not having an HD400 to play with I can't be certain on the exact capabilities of it in the real world. I know some of the other L6 Experts do have the HD400 and will be able to provide you with a much clearer idea of what is possible than I can. Space? Rowbi? Silverhead?

My feeling is that you probably can't apply all the same rules to the HD400 in 4CM mode as you can to the HD500.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by jcopeland1 on 2011-05-12 11:20:03

Nick,'I tried your suggestion below and It worked.  I do have the option of turning the amp modeling off on a preset when in the manual mode.  (IE I may not be able to bank up and down but for what I do this may work.)  I need to work on the mix, and overall volume levels being equal but basically I think it worked.

I did notice that there was a constant tone in the backgorund and it may have had something to do with the settings like line/amp etc.  I need to play around with those to see how I should set it up.  Any Ideas on this and thanks you so much for you detailed post.  It was very helpful.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by glenbury on 2011-05-16 13:10:42

Hey Nick;

This is a great description of the 4 cable method thanks.

My question is how would the 4 cable method work with the 3 channel Mark V amp I have ?

Will the HD500 4 cable method handle changing the 3 channels on my amp or do I still need my

Mark V footswitch to handle that ?

What if I want to be able to use my amps 3 channels "To hear just the sounds of your amp"

in addition to using some HD500 modeling patches?

Would I just set up 3 NULL presets for each amp channel ?

Thanks !



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by gregr on 2011-05-16 13:41:49

You will need to use the footswitch to change channels unless you get an additional device like a Voodoo Lab Control Switcher so that this can be done via MIDI from the HD500.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by glenbury on 2011-05-16 14:17:40

So with the Midi switcher & 4 cable method I can have the modeling of the HD500 plus the channel swithching of the amp without the amp footswitch, correct ?

Thanks



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by gregr on 2011-05-16 14:19:56

That's correct.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-16 14:28:03

Hi Glen

I'm not sure how far the MIDI capabilities of the Mark V amp go.   I was looking at the capabilities of the Marshall JVM (I have a 205H) yesterday in response to another user.  The HD500 sends Program Change messages when you change between presets, and although I haven't tested it yet the Marshall can save up to 128 MIDI presets meaning that of the 64 possible preset program change numbers possible from the HD500, the Marshall would have easily enough MIDI presets available to have whatever channel and other selections it needed to match all 64 presets in a dedicated 4CM preset set list.  In addition the HD500's FS 1 to FS 8 footswitches can be programmed to send pretty much whatever MIDI Program Change or CC messages you want.  If the Mark V is similar in MIDI control terms to the JCM you shouldn't have any problems.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by glenbury on 2011-05-16 14:28:49

Thanks very much Greg !



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by glenbury on 2011-05-16 15:21:39

Hi;

It looks like in my case with the Mark V I will need a midi switcher as Greg suggested

whereas your Marshall won't require such a device.

In case anyone is interested, I just found a demo of a Mini Amp Gizmo switcher between a Line 6 M13(I assume the HD500 would be the same)  and a Mark V.

Click the video tab, it's the on on the bottom.

http://www.rjmmusic.com/miniampgizmo.php

The Amp Gizmo goes to the footswitch on the back of the Mark V.

Thanks !



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by gregr on 2011-05-16 15:33:27

I don't mean to sound like a shill, but the other product I mentioned goes for $100 less.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by glenbury on 2011-05-16 17:24:11

Thanks, I'll check it out.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by jcopeland1 on 2011-05-18 11:55:58

Nick,

I palyed with this setup a little more and was able to use my ampo and then switch to the modeling using the power amp and effects lopp.  However for some reason when the effects loop is on I ma gettin a high pitch squeal.  Maybe some feedback in the loop based upon the signal routing???  Thoughts???



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Caxito on 2011-05-30 13:48:01

Thanks Nick for the explanation of the method 4 cables.

Despite reports that there would not have worked well, I do many tests with my Blackstar HT 40, I have not done.

The four cables seems to be an avenue for those who has a good tube amp and want the flexibility of the HD500.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by glenbury on 2011-05-31 10:04:45

Hey Nick;

In regards to your connection setup:

"Wire your guitar, the HD500 and amp together as follows:

Guitar > HD500 Input > HD500 FX Send (using a mono cable) > Amp front input.  Amp FX Send > HD500 L/Mono Return.  HD500 Left Out > Amp FX Return"

Should the connection from the FX Send to the amp front be a guitar cable ?

Also, will TRS 1/4 inch cables work for these 4CM connections ?

Thanks



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-31 11:55:21

glenbury wrote:

Hey Nick;

In regards to your connection setup:

"Wire your guitar, the HD500 and amp together as follows:

Guitar > HD500 Input > HD500 FX Send (using a mono cable) > Amp front input.  Amp FX Send > HD500 L/Mono Return.  HD500 Left Out > Amp FX Return"

Should the connection from the FX Send to the amp front be a guitar cable ?

Also, will TRS 1/4 inch cables work for these 4CM connections ?

Thanks

The way the FX Loop send now works with firmware 1.3 is changed from how it used to be in earlier firmware versions which were in place when i wrote my original statement.  The FX Send used to send Mono but now it sends stereo via the TRS jack soucket.  There is no auto-sensing of whether a mono or stereo patch cable has been used as I had previously assumed, and the fact that the FX Send used to sum both channels to mono was in fact a bug which has now been rectified.

To properly send both sides of a stereo path to a mono amp now, you should create the summing operation mechanically by using a TRS jack plug with the tip and Ring linked at the FX Send end and a standard mono jack at the other OR otherwise ensure by using a mono effect immediately pre the FX Loop to sum both channels to mono and then although technically if you use a mono jack to mono jack cable, you are accessing the left Send channel only, you are sending a mono signal nevertheless.

But yes in essence an instrument cable - albeit a modified one or via a short adapter with an in-line socket to accept a standard instrument cable.(the adapter being a TRS jack with Tip and Ring linked to a Mono in-line jack socket with the tip/ring wire from the other end connected to the Tip connection in the in-line socket).  The cable used should be good quality screened cable however you achive the mechanical summing of Left and Right Send channels.

TRS cables will indeed work in a mono jack socket to normal mono jack socket scenario, but you will still need to use a specially modified cable or adapter to ensure the Left and Right Send channels are summed, because at the amp input connector a TRS jack socket may have been used, but if so the Ring connection will either not be connected at all or it will be linked to the Sleeve connection thereby ensuring the Right channel from the HD500 FX Send is not connected to anything or that it is shorted to ground.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-31 12:04:57

jcopeland1 wrote:

Nick,

I palyed with this setup a little more and was able to use my ampo and then switch to the modeling using the power amp and effects lopp.  However for some reason when the effects loop is on I ma gettin a high pitch squeal.  Maybe some feedback in the loop based upon the signal routing???  Thoughts???

Sorry I missed your post.  I was on holiday last week and was using a poor Internet connection.

Hmmm.  I don't have the HD400 to test properly with the 4 Cable Method unfortunately.  It is not as flexible as the HD500 when it comes to signal routing and use of the FX Loop, so it may be that you are creating a feedback loop the way that you are trying to use it.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Caxito on 2011-05-31 12:19:59

Sorry Nick but still do not understand the change of cables that caused by the new firmware.

Then, in the4  Cable
Method connected to my HD Valve Amp, I use, only, standard mono guitar cable or should I use at some point, this TRS 1 / 4 inch cables.

What is the difference between mono guitar cables and such TRS 1 / 4 inch cables?

What difference in sound in this case?

You could explain it better, Nick, sorry the ignorance, but I want to "get it on" correctly in Method 4 cables to my Amp.

So what changes here:

Guitar> Input HD500> HD500 FX send (using a mono cable)> Amp input front. Amp FX Send> HD500 L / Mono Return. HD500 Left Out> Amp FX Return "

Grateful



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-31 13:08:35

Caxito wrote:

Sorry Nick but still do not understand the change of cables that caused by the new firmware.

Then, in the4  Cable
Method connected to my HD Valve Amp, I use, only, standard mono guitar cable or should I use at some point, this TRS 1 / 4 inch cables.

What is the difference between mono guitar cables and such TRS 1 / 4 inch cables?

What difference in sound in this case?

You could explain it better, Nick, sorry the ignorance, but I want to "get it on" correctly in Method 4 cables to my Amp.

So what changes here:

Guitar> Input HD500> HD500 FX send (using a mono cable)> Amp input front. Amp FX Send> HD500 L / Mono Return. HD500 Left Out> Amp FX Return "

Grateful

OK

Before firmware update 1.31 for the HD500, the HD500 FX Loop was incorrectly summing the outgoing signal to Mono because of a programming error (bug), so using a mono patch cable was absolutely fine.

However, when the bug in the previous firmware was noticed a little before firmware 1.31 was released, Line 6 fixed the problem and now the FX loop correctly sends a proper stereo signal out of the FX Loop SEND socket.

The FX Loop Send socket is not a mono socket.  It is a stereo socket and uses a Tip, Ring, Sleeve configuration.  Tip = Left channel, Ring = Right channel, Sleeve = Common Ground

TRS%20jack.jpg

So to absolutely ensure that the full stereo image prior to the FX Loop Send socket is included when you send it to a mono input such as the input to your amp, you now need to mecahanically sum the Left and Right channels, so you solder the Tip and Ring connections together in the plug above and then using screened flexible cable you connect the core to the Tip/Ring joint and the screen/braid to the Sleeve connection.  This will be the end that plugs in to the HD500 FX Send socket.

At the other end of your custom cable, the core of the cable is soldered to the Tip connection of a standard mono Tip, Sleeve jack plug and the screen/braid is soldered to the Sleeve connection.  This is the end of the cable that will be connected to your amp.

TS%20jack.jpg

We'll call this cable your Custom FX Send cable.

So this (1):

Guitar> Input HD500 Input; HD500 FX Send (using a mono cable)> Amp input front; . Amp FX Send > HD500 Left Mono Return; HD500 Left Out > Amp FX Return

Changes to this (2):

Guitar> HD500 Input; HD500 FX Send (using your Custom FX Send Cable) > Amp Input front; Amp FX Send > HD500 Left Mono Return; HD500 Left Out > Amp FX Return

However, there is a scenario where you can still use a mono cable as in (1) above, and that is where you use a mono effect in your HD500's signal chain just BEFORE the HD500 FX Loop, because using a mono effect will sum both left and right channels BEFORE they are sent out via the HD500's FX Loop Send socket, and because the left and right channels are now sent in mono it doesn't matter that mechanically only the Left output is being sent from the HD500 FX Loop Send socket.  So your HD500 signal chain prior to the FX Loop could look something like this:

Ping-Pong Delay (stereo effect),  Blue Comp (mono effect which will sum the stereo effect of the ping pong delay to mono),  FX Loop......

OK - in reality I almost certainly wouldn't use a ping pong delay in that position - i was just using that as an extreme example of a stereo effect for the purposes of illustration.  Typically my signal chain up to the FX Loop (if I was to use the 4 Cable Method) would look something like this:

Noise gate (mono effect permanently ON) > Wah (mono effect) > Screamer (mono effect) > FX Loop.....   so the Noise Gate would merge/sum my signal to mono anyway thereby making use of a Custom FX Send Cable unnecessary for any preset I create like this, but to absolutely ensure that it always works, use of the Custom FX Send Cable is preferable.

I hope that's clear

Regards

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Caxito on 2011-05-31 13:34:45

Thanks Nick!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-31 13:43:41

No worries - I confuse myself sometimes too LOL



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by university81 on 2011-05-31 15:25:40

I've been running the 4cm into my blackstar HT-5 now for a few days, and absolutely loving it

I just thought i'd mention to make sure your mixer is set to 'center' as opposed to the default 100% L and 100% R , i overlooked that and will effect your tone when running the amp preamp

you can then use the mixer levels to volume match with your pod hd amp volume patches

again this might be obvious just thought i'd mention, a lot of informative stuff in this thread



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Caxito on 2011-06-01 13:29:17

up!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Lomar on 2011-06-03 00:30:12

Thanx for explaining this method, when using the fx loop, what is the best place to put it in the chain.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-06-03 08:36:29

Lomar wrote:

Thanx for explaining this method, when using the fx loop, what is the best place to put it in the chain.

Well that's up to you at the end of the day, but a pretty well recognised 'standard' approach with normal stomp boxes is to put all your 'nasty' distortiony/overdrivey type FX in front of your amp's preamp - ie between guitar and the main guitar input on the amp, and all your lovely swirly/washy/delay/reverb type FX in your amp's loop.

With 4CM running as intended you'd almost certainly not be using the HD500's amp modelling, so your signal chain would possibly look something like this as an example:

Guitar > HD500 input (Internal FX chain part 1: Wah > Classic Distortion > Screamer > FX LOOP) > FX Send > Amp Guitar Input > Amp Preamp > Amp FX Send > HD500 FX Return (Internal FX chain part 2: FX LOOP > Analog Chorus > Amp block (OFF) . Mixer Block>  Digital Delay  > Volume Pedal > Plate Reverb



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by 4runner on 2011-09-16 22:34:40

I have a pd 400 and I assume from your expertise that I really dont need or can use the 4cm.  Is this true?



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by DeFrezd on 2011-11-01 12:24:20

Hey, I have some questions...

I am currently using this "two cable method" when playing my pod hd500 - I use the pod:s amp simulation.

But the thing is, I have this really good tube amp with a good realistic sound, Vox AD100VT-XL, and I felt it would be such a shame not using it. So i decided to try the four cable method. I watched a video from Line 6 where they explained exactly how to connect the cables etc, etc. The first thing i noticed was; They talked about some mono cable. What is a mono cable? Is it okay to use a regular guitar cable in the 4CM?

One other thing that I've noticed you guys have been talking about is this FX-Loop. What exactly is it for and where should i place it in my signal chain? When editing my FX-Loop, there's three alternatives; Send, return and mix. The mix is already set to 100% and the send is set to 0. The return parameter is set to zero, but I don't get any sound. What return-value is recommended?

When I play, set up like this with four regular guitar cables the way they're supposed to and with no effects or pod amd simulation, I get a sound that's not very similar to the sound I'm used to hear just from the amplifer.

I dont get it.

I'd be very pleased with answers.

/Fredrik




Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-11-01 13:15:36

Hi

The 'mono' cables are really just standard instrument (guitar) cables

The FX Loop is the effects loop.    The FX Loop is primarily designed to place external effects in the signal chain at an appropriate point.  It's basically an insert point.  In the Four Cable Method it can be utilised to 'insert' the pre-amp section of a real guitar amplifier in the signal chain of the HD500.

There are no cast iron rules about whereabouts in the HD500 signal chain the FX loop should be placed, but a lot of guitar players like to place their distortion effects and wah between the guitar output and their pre amp input and then they like to place things like chorus, delay and reverb after the amp's pre-amp but before its power amp, so to do that using the HD500 as an effects only device you would probably not use amp or cab modelling.  When using the Four Cable Method, the most probable reason for doing so is to retain the character of the original amp and not to colour it with amp modelling from a POD. 

So take a pretty typical rock guitarist's rig which could consist of a guitar, Cry Baby wah, Tube Screamer, Boss DS-1 Distortion a Marshall JVM 205H head into the effects loop of which you might want an Analog Chorus and Digital Delay .  You could do all that with stomp boxes placed between the amp and guitar input and in the amp's FX Loop.

When you want to reproduce something similar with an HD500 and the same JVM head you would do it like this:

HD500 signal chain:  Wah > Screamer > Classic Distortion > FX Loop > AMP/CAB modelling (OFF) > Analog Chorus > Digital Delay.

Physical connections would be:

Guitar > HD500 Guitar Input

HD500 FX Loop Send > JVM guitar input

JVM FX Send > HD500 L(mono) FX Return

HD500 Left (or Right but not both!) output > JVM FX Return

Turn the JVM (or other amp) FX Return Mix control to 100% so that it becomes a serial loop (not all amps' mix controls go to 100%).

Set the HD500 AMP/LINE switch to LINE.  Set the HD500 output mode to Stack Pwr Amp if using a head and cab or to Combo Pwr Amp if using a combo

Set the  STOMP/LINE switch on the back of the HD500 to STOMP

The FX Return level value needs to be set to roughly match the level you'd get from your amp's pre-amp with no HD500 anywhere in circuit.  I would assume that this level should be 100%, however if you find that is too loud then back the level off until it's right for your set-up.

Make sure you don't use any amp models in the HD500 and that way you should find the sound you get should be fairly similar to how your amp sounds on its own.

You will need to tweak levels on the HD500 so that it can be inserted in the whole signal chain as transparently as possible.

Nick



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by jimsreynolds on 2011-11-01 13:52:41

I posted up some generic guidance on the jvmforum.com relating to 4CM  - the reason for using it and how it works.   It may be useful getting it clear in your head.  Unusually, the jvmforum is offline today so I have attached a PDF that you can refer to.

Cheers

JIM

-----------------

Edit:   Now posted up on the L6 site as a 'Document' here --> http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2504



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by DeFrezd on 2011-11-02 01:00:35

Thank you Nick, it was really helpful.



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by DeFrezd on 2011-11-02 01:03:08

You to Jim!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by mlopes666 on 2013-02-07 15:46:02

I Nick!

i'm a recent pod hd500 owner, and i would like to use the 4CM into my amp.

i have a jcm 900, with JJ 6L6 power tubes \m/ \m/  ( sounds really great)

first question: the jcm 900 has fx loop, and a small knob near , this one is the loop fx mix rigth? so i have to turn to 100% rigth?

the second : my signal chain at this moment :  volume pedal-4band parametric- tube drive - sweeper wha -  mixer . delay - reverb - chorus\phaser

using the 4CM i just need to add  a fx loop between the sweeper wha, and the mixer rigth? 

the third: if i want to use a pod preamp model instead of jcm 900 preamp how it works? i've read a 4CM document here , and it's talking about the possibility of changing between a hd500 preamp, and a jcm 900 preamp, can you explain that, how it works?  

sorry my bad english, i'm portuguese, but the google translator it's shi$%&   eheheheheh

thank you!!!



Re: Pod HD 500 4 cable method
by jimsreynolds on 2013-02-08 04:43:54

Hi

I'm afraid Nick no longer posts in this forum -->  http://line6.com/support/thread/84414">http://line6.com/support/thread/84414">http://line6.com/support/thread/84414

1)  From the JCM900 Manual here -->  https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marshallamps.com%2Fdownloads%2Ffiles%2F4100%2520Hbk.pdf&ei=7vAUUd2-KqzY0QXQ9IHIBw&usg=AFQjCNFVNArdSfp5hiIv33FclodVRPZa1Q&sig2=mApdigYpbg1Po7miE0l7xg

Effects Loop Level Control

Adjusts the level of the effects loop from -10dBV to + 4dBm. Higher settings match modern effects process

For 4CM I would recommend that you start with turn the knob fully counterclockwise (-10dBV). Higher settings might cause unwanted distortion.

2)  Suggest you have a read through the note here to see details on how you can setup 4CM with your amp and the HD500.   There are levels that need to be set correctly else you will find the tone is  weak or distorted (in a bad way).  This is not the only way to set the levels for 4CM so search this site if you need more detail.  If you need more details on what effects go where in the 4CM setup then try this doc -->http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2523">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2523">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2523

3)  This is covered in the note that tells you how to setup 4CM with your amp.  Matching levels between the 'real' and HD500 pre-amps can be a challenge but otherwise it works very well.


Cheers

JIM




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.