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z3albw1rr last won the day on April 21

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  1. Holy crap, is that llike the real Craig Anderton? I thought maybe it was just a screen name someone picked as a fan or something! If that's the case, I'm honored - I had one of his home studio books from back in the 80s or early 90s. I haven't tried any other Analyzers because I don't really have any. But Craig's test was comparing to internal sounds. I'm comparing a signal without the HX FX to a signal with it in line. I explained in my other response, my problem is I'm trying to make effects from another Line 6 product contained in a newer Line 6 product sound like the effects from the older Line 6 product! The Classic Distortion in my HX should sound the same as the Classic Distortion in my M13. But it doesn't. Do I need a buffer? Do I need a Radial Dragster? Is it even possible to have the same effects from different devices sound the same? As I said in my other post this happened with the move from the 4 series to the Pod XT live. The M series sounded the same as the 4 series. So the commonalities are, the 4 and M series are true bypass, while the HX and Pod were not. I don't know that it's fair to compare the Pod and HX architecture but one thing is clear: The HX FX changes the tone when it is plugged in, even with all blocks bypassed (or not even in the path). This means it's "doing something" to the tone, and that's resulting in the sounds being different not only from my direct signal, but from my other Line 6 products with "the same" sounds in them. If there is a way to negate that, great. But it seems that a lot of people don't hear it, or don't it doesn't bother them, or aren't trying to compare to other things, and so on. Great for them, sucks for me though. IOW, if I wanted a host of different sounds, I would have bought a Boss or Fractal or Headrush or something. Instead I wanted a newer version of my M13 that had the same sounds in it - which "supposedly" it did because of the "Legacy" moniker and all the names and controls being the same. But they're not. And I'm not even sure that being able to "fix" any of these EQ difference will solve that problem, but if I can figure out how to make the thing pass "direct signal without altering it" by adjusting EQ then those sounds may be much closer to being able to be dialled in.
  2. Well that's fair, but consider this: I had an M13 that sounded great. Why shouldn't this "new and improved product" that contains the legacy effects version from the M13 sound just as good? The problem is, all things point to I should be able to get the sounds out of the Helix, but something's going on... But yeah starting to look like I need to sell it and just waste the time going through analog pedals and just doing it old school. I don't have much money, and this was a "once in a decade" purchase (my M13 I bought in 2013) and I don't like messing with selling things at a loss so I'm trying to "make it work" so I didn't lose my butt on this.
  3. Well, I care because I actually care about tone :-D Seriously though, the problem is I have a number of external drives I love, and always get compliments on my tone when I use them. I also have an M13 that I spent a lot of time dialling in tones on. And I like the sound of my clean amp - all my effects pedals bypassed. So I would like to "transfer over" my analog pedals as I was able to do into the M13 (not exact, but close enough), and transfer over the M13 sounds, and still play clean through my amp. The problem is, the HX FX is noticeably altering my tone. And the graphs demonstrate exactly what I'm hearing. Furthermore, the legacy effects on the HX FX do not sound the same as the M13. I ran into this exact same problem when I moved from the "4" series (DL4, MM4, DM4) to the Pod XT Live - it messed up my bypassed tone and you couldn't correct for it, and the sounds from the 4 series pedals were all drastically different. In this case now, the legacy models are more obviously "supposed to be the same". I'm trying to figure out if there's anything I can do to "fix" this problem. I've done some more experimentation since my last post and simply putting a Hi-Cut, or any of the blocks that cut highs - Kinky Boost, some drives, etc. naturally do it or I can use an EQ. But what triggered the post was the inability to dial out that 8k boost. Using a mic to record it's not such a problem, but still it's hearing something different than what I am in the room - but it's closer and again my ears and the graphs agree - it's adding some highs because it's a buffer. The 4 series and M series were both True Bypass, and the M series had a switch for analog or digital bypass, such that anything you ran with a dry thru (like many of the delays) didn't alter the tone (it did but very insignificantly). So it matters to me because I'm comparing it to great tones I've spent a lot of hours on and would like to have still because I use them regularly. And there seem to be some things going on tonally with this device that is making it difficult (and maybe impossible) to get those same kinds of tones. I see some demos online of how close it sounds to a TubeScreamer and so on, but when I try to mimic the sound of the M13 or the pedal I based that M13 on - which are Tube Screamer type sounds I just can't get the HX FX to sound as close to the real pedal as I could the M13, nor get the HX FX to sound as close to the M13's version.
  4. I'm having this issue too. I've suspected something is getting on the tap switch from the bottom of your shoe or your foot. When it happens on mine, I'll wipe the switch down with a lysol wipe and it seems to not have the problem anymore, so I think something is getting stuck there you can't really see (a hair or something) that's enough to trigger the "touch" thing. IIRC you can turn off touch settings so maybe trey that and see if it keeps doing it. Mine are only months old!
  5. I repeated the experiment today with an SM57 in front of the amp - everything else the same. Some interesting results. First, here's the Bypassed versus "on but all effects bypassed" image: You can see the "blurble" is now down around 5k, and tapers off earlier. I suspect this is of course due to my putting an SM57, in a certain position on a speaker - both of which are not full range response devices. Now THE REALLY ODD THING this time was, if I put an EQ on it actually would counteract it as you'd expect. I don't have an image of it but when I put an EQ on and cut 8k - and assuming a certain bandwidth around it (not sure what that number is though - the default is 7, and I put it on 1, thinking 1 octave bandwidth) with a cut of -10db. I got an almost flat line - I cut too much and went back and tried -8db and that was even better - there were little bumps here and there in those high frequencies but we're talking maybe half db or 1 db ripple - at those frequencies and amounts you're not going to hear those. And audibly, the bypassed tone was WAY closer to the engaged (but with all blocks bypassed) tone - which makes perfect sense. I could tweak it some more, and will, but I already got fairly close just trying to reverse engineer from the graph. Then I tried drives before the EQ - OMG, SO much better. I just thought the things like the Boss OD and SD were horrible. Super scratchy and hissy/spitty/fizzy. Now pretty much every single thing I ran through sounded like I would have expected it - and the legacy effects now sound more identical to the ones in the M13. I'm not sure why the EQs wouldn't affect that higher frequency 8K+ in the other tests, and why they would here, but still they do reflect visually what I'm hearing audibly (and I suppose what the mic is hearing too). This is probably why I've run across a few people saying they just run a Kinky Boost at the end of their chain and is just makes it all sound better - well yeah, it's cutting all those highs in the non-bright setting. It seems though from my previous experiments a simple Low Pass/ High Cut won't do it. The bottom end seems to need a little oomph too - note the slightly bigger hill down around 35 hz. I'm going to tinker with some EQs and see what I can do to "repair" my tone. Since I use a Volume pedal end of chain, what I might just do is put an EQ in place of the volume pedal, and control it's overall level with the expression pedal to basically do the same thing. Since I'm likely going to have to use an EQ block to "fix" things, might as well use it for the Volume pedal too - don't waste a block on it that way.
  6. Try plugging the pedal in, turning the unit on, and removing the pedal, then plugging it back in. It seems like it needs to "calibrate" sometimes and plugging it out and in when the unit on is how this is done. If you did this on the M13 with an effect engaged it would reset the min/max parameters of that effect, so I was always careful to plug an unplug my pedal with the unit off or be sure to disengage the effect - I don't know how many times I accidentally erased pedal settings because I forgot and left the effect engaged! But I also would unplug and plug to "reset" the values with an effect engaged on purpose sometimes. I'm not positive if the HX Effects behaves the same way because I've unplugged and replugged with an effect engaged IIRC and it keeps the values - because they're stored differently in the Helix line. But this is how you calibrate the pedal - unplug and replug with the unit on. Once you do that it should work as expected after that. It could be a setting in the effect itself, but try this unplug/replug while on trick first and see if that fixes. Hey, I also want to ask you since I did the same thing - give up my beloved M13 to move to the HX Effects - if you have a chance can you compare your Legacy sounds in the M13 with the HX Effects in the same settings? I found them to be quite different - noticeably different - this is guitar to M13 to amp, or guitar to HXFX to amp.
  7. Since I'm obviously starting to follow in your disturbed footprints, here are a couple more pictures :-) 1. This shows the Direct signal (which is either no HX FX in the path, or the HX FX in the path but either turned off, or set to Analog Bypass Mode and bypassed - which are all basically the same as my 1st image in the 1st post) as compared to the Kinky Boost with it set to no boost and no bright switch: Now you'll notice here that the Kinky Boost is lessening the frequencies starting about 2k. Now, this is pretty evident when you listen to it - in fact, you can throw a Drive in the path, and put the KB either before it or after it - and when you put it after it you can hear how much of the highs it shaves off. So that's what that pedal is supposed to do. But, notice this "problem area" from 8k up is an issue still. 2. This image is the bypassed path with HX FX on, compared to the KB again: See the difference? This is what the KB is doing to the "dry" signal "in the box" - which is what it should do. It's basically cutting things from 2k up. If you put the KB in an empty path, it's a bit louder overall - and that's evident by this saying you'd have to turn it down from 20 up to about 1.5k (i.e. the line above the midline is showing us what we'd have to do to compensate to get it to sound like the dry signal) So this graph agrees with everything you'll hear if you compare a dry signal in HX FX to having the KB in the path - it'll be slightly louder over all, and start cutting off the high freqs around 2k. But image #1 is what concerns me - comparing a Dry signal WITHOUT HX FX on to one with it on. So you turn it on, load up whatever, and it "does what it's supposed to do", but there's this extra boost from 8k+ that is so strong it counteracts and even negates what the block is supposed to do. Everything in the 2nd image that's above 8k that is above the line is like the rest of that image above the line - they're high frequencies that are being CUT by the block. But in the 1st image the block is only able to do that for frequencies below 8k - once it reaches 8k it is now boosting those frequencies. So SOMETHING is happening within the device that is boosting 8k+ frequencies as compared to the direct signal, even if you include any block that should cut those frequencies - it does cut them absolutely within the box as compared to the dry signal in the box, but that dry signal in the box already has that extra boost in those frequencies. Thus when you compare it to a direct signal, those frequencies are STILL boosted no matter what you do with the effects in the box. It strikes me as insane that an effect block like a Low Pass Filter or anything like that shouldn't attenuate the frequencies above 8k. It's like it works as expected below 8k but when you cross that threshold it basically ignores it - in essence it's "adding it back in" despite the blocks cutting it. Now, I'd be fine calling this a potential anomaly in the Match EQ - since it's so consistent. And even if HX FX was adding frequencies above 8k at the output, you'd think feeding it a highly cut signal would bring it up, but not THAT much - I mean the result would look more like the 2nd kinky boost image instead (and BTW, I haven't discounted that the upper stuff on the KB signal could in fact be just that - this 8k+ stuff being added back in and "fighting" with the KB's upper signal - maybe the KB should look more like a typical LPF attenuation of the upper freqs - a smooth decrease from 2k up with a 6 or 12db /octave slope). But the issue here is, I hear it. And I heard it first. And what's happening visually really does represent what I'm hearing. So that leads me to believe this is not some glitch in how Logic's Match EQ is reporting, or how I'm doing the experiment and so on. EDIT: I did just repeat the experiment using Tonal Balance Control which gives you a visual line of the frequency content present. The lines read IDENTICAL between images 1 and 3 in my original post. So that counters this whole theory. I don't have a Spectrum Analyzer I can "freeze" so I'll need to do that with Pink Noise that can remain more consistent (my original clip is a Guitar open E chord). There is a spectrum analyzer in Logic's EQs and it doesn't show much energy in the signal above about 2k and TBC is showing there's energy up to 6k - both well below this 8k "glitch". So either Match EQ is hearing something TBC and the spectrum analyzers don't or can't represent, or the Match EQ is adding something faulty. Again though, the problem is, my ears are hearing non-identical signals, so that they show identical in TBC would lead me to believe it's not as precise as Match EQ... I'm still prepared to eat my hat on all this though...
  8. Remember that I'm comparing a direct signal to that going through HXFX. In your experiment above it looks like you're just comparing two things already in Helix - If I were to do this it would show the exact same thing - but I'd be comparing a file from HX to another file from HX, not a file that doesn't include HX in the path at all. You'll notice the bottom right of each image has a setting for Phase which is set to Linear. Good point about the Pink Noise and really I should repeat the experiments by sending that through. However right now we're talking apples and oranges - I'd get the exact same result if I ran pink noise through the two EQs you used with those settings. What I'm doing though is comparing pink noise straight into an interface versus pink noise through the HX then into an interface. When the HX is in the path, it adds 8k+ frequencies to the signal as compared to the direct signal.
  9. I've been doing some experimenting with why the HX FX, well, sucks, and here's what I've got so far: 1. The following image shows the difference between a direct guitar signal and the signal coming out of the HX Effects (two of them in a row in this case) with both OFF and in True Bypass mode. This is done using Logic's "Match EQ" where you pull in a reference file, and then a file to compare it to, and it shows you what you would need to do to make them the same. You can see that there is not very much difference in the signal - could be attributed to the devices, or one additional 18' cable: 2. This next image is of the HXFX ON this time, but bypassed in True Bypass Mode: You can see there's not much difference as one might expect since True Bypass with the device or or off should pass the same signal. 3. The next image is with the HX FX on, with all the effects in a path bypassed. Here is where a huge problem starts to show itself. Notice that everything above 8k is a problem. Match EQ here is telling us that in order to make the signal going through HXFX be the same as that of the signal not going through the device, we would need to CUT anything above 8k by about 6-7 db (note: everything from about 6k down appears to be boosted, and what this means is the output of the HXFX when on is just slightly below unity): 4. This final image shows where the problem becomes an even bigger issue: This is the Hi/Low Cut Block with everything above 6k cut -12db - which is the max. Notice that everything above 8k is basically the same as before. That means THIS EQ IS NOT AFFECTING THOSE FREQUENCIES. And it's not just this EQ. In fact, I set it to 8k first, and there was little difference. I used 6k here to show that it's working - because we can assume 6k is OK based on the previous image and since we've cut that too (and it's a shelf EQ, which has a slope) it's telling us we'd need to BOOST 5k and 6k ish - which makes sense because it's getting cut by the EQ. But everything from 8k up SHOULD BE doing just like 5 and 6 K - it should be ABOVE the line, NOT below it! I've repeated the experiment with a number of different EQs and a number of other effects set to clean or as transparent as they can be. In every case, this same "problem area" is present. Now, I can use a Channel EQ in Logic and correct it there. So what that tells me is that the HX Effects is adding this POST effects - it's doing it on the Output of the device. Because if you dial all the 8k and above out with an EQ, it shouldn't be there, right? But it is - it's a little different as you can see in the 6k example, so that means you're not feeding the signal in there - but SOMETHING is creating that problem area - and since none of the blocks can significantly affect it, it means it's getting after the blocks. Now, since I have 2 HX Effects, I checked this with both of them together, and individually. IOW, it's not that I'm cutting 8k on the first HXFX and then it's getting added back on the 2nd one. It happens alone or in tandem. Basically, there is no way to get rid of this 8k+ 6-7 db boost in frequencies without putting a physical EQ after the devices (which will have to be part of my next set of experiments). Now, to be transparent, Guitar Speakers don't necessarily all produce frequencies above about 5k equally. But many do get up into that 8k range and some in the 10k range. And anyone who knows how the Equal Loudness Curves work knows that a 6db difference between 5 and 8k at an overall volume of 40db is not going to be the same as at 80db (the kind of levels we often play at). [also: note, while these are not going through guitar speakers, they are a direct comparison at the input of an interface into a DAW, so they are 1:1 in that regard - this is "what's coming out of the HX FX"] What that means is that high frequencies that might not be a problem at home volumes suddenly become "hissy" "fizzy" and just "harsh" mess at a higher volume. Anyone who says "well you're not going to hear that anyway" is wrong. I can already hear an audible difference in the tone between images 2 and 3 - which is no effects on (when playing through an amp). It sounds "thinner" and "weaker" (most likely because of the overall volume drop below unity) and has a harsh high end - "harsh" or "tinkly" or whatever kind of words you want to use to describe it - basically, "not as good/full as the unaltered signal". Now my goal thus far has been to "correct for the tone difference". I've seen this many times before on forums and I'm sure anyone still reading has too: "there's this digital harshness you just can't dial out". Well now I see why - you can't actually dial it out. I mistakenly thought, "oh I'll just slap an EQ on there and get rid of those high frequencies I'm hearing". Oh, and BTW, I'm in my 50s, and my ears are shot, and I've been using all kinds of things for 35 years of playing, and am no stranger to Line 6 products either - I was selling AxSys 212s in music stores when they first came out. But I can still hear this difference pretty easily. I can't imagine what it must be like for you poor souls who can still hear high frequencies - you're like dogs cowering in fear! I hate to have to add an EQ pedal behind the FXs, but it looks like that's the solution. I will pass this through some Amp/Cab models in Logic to see what they do, and I'll eat my hat if it gets rid of everything. I'll do it with a live amp and mic too (now that I've narrowed down what to compare). And I'll try an EQ behind it as well just to see what happens - and if my ears agree with my eyes.
  10. My first thought when I saw this is this sounds like a signal flow issue. In the old days if you plugged in a tape deck to a stereo system, but then monitored the recording input, it could create a feedback loop - crazy loud - and not like guitar feedback like we like - and not really like PA (microphone) feedback even (closer), but this kind of loud, annoying, electronic squeal. That would tell me that possibly something is going on with your 4CM routing. Something is feeding back into something it shouldn't be. Which is kind of unusual. That then sounds like something in the FX loop settings. Are you using the Helix to channel switch your amp too? Yeah, and the difference there is the FX loop is bypassed (or, is it bypassed, or do you just turn the effects off?) So that's leading me even further to believe the settings there, or how you're doing it might be the issue. Well, my first thing is always to just take everything out of the path. Try plugging guitar directly into helix, and helix into the input of your amp and see. If that has no problem, then add things back in one at a time. Then go back and try 4CM and add things back in one at a time - you have to narrow down what exactly is causing the problem.
  11. Years (decades) ago when the older Line 6 products came out, they had a "model gallery" that discussed each model, what it was emulating and so on. More importantly, there was often some additional discussion about "secret features" or to make something behave like the original - or not if you didn't want noise - explained what "dry thru" was and so on. I saw something here a couple of days ago that I actually stumbled on myself almost the same time - that some modulation effects don't have a Mix knob that behaves as wet dry, but 50 percent is "the most effect". I've not seen anything that tells you which ones do that and which ones don't though...or is it in the manual and I missed it (other than "some effects may..." - I want to know which ones specifically). Another one I just ran across was apparently the original CE-1 choruses had a dry signal on one side and a wet signal on the other - in stereo. How is this emulated in mono though? Should I pop one in Path B, with path A being dry, and path B being 100% wet in a mono setting to get a similar thing - or do I just set the mix at 25, or wait, 50, or is it 25% - since I'm not sure which one is "50/50 wet/dry" based on the differences in the others). One of the coolest Drives is the Line 6 Drive (or maybe Line 6 Distortion) that has a Mid knob that'll move it from more of a Fuzz to more of a Metal Zone - it's a really nice feature but how would new users learn about this? Even dshowmusic and helixhelp which are two of the most common results in searches don't have as many details - but is there some document out there by Line 6 that tells us more - like the old model gallery books did?
  12. It wasn't intended to be mean-spririted at all, rather more of a camaraderie - that's why the "get off my lawn" was met with "yelling at clouds". Just trying to have some fun with you. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Such are the dangers of text-based communications, even with smileys and emojis.
  13. Try it now - it's not too hard to set up and is really flexible. As I was telling the OP though, depending on the model, you may not be able to keep the volume level while having the saturation go up, or even any kind of upward slope such that as your pedal travels it makes a "linear" (not in terms of taper, but just in terms of sound) increase. But dialing up the drive with your expression pedal behaves not unlike rolling up your guitar volume so if you want it to get louder as it gets more drive for solos, that'll work. I actually have one set up where I have a rhythm crunch tone, and then I put more saturation on it for leads, and it turned out to be just the right amount without having to mess with the volume. But you could do more drive and more volume too.
  14. What they asked for was "Blues-y" not Blues specifically ;-) And you can play Bluesy with any amount of gain - it's how you play it, not what sound you play it with! And you can still do it by assigning parameters to an EXP, and STILL do it with your volume knob! So the modern approach gives you 2 ways to do it, rather than 1. Just like you can Robert Cray that bad boy up with the cleanest tone known to man! How's them clouds for yelling at? :-D
  15. Not quite I think. What I think is I NEED the Split Block to respond to FS 4. I want to use FS4 to turn Path B on and off - and when on have it go through Path B, but not path A, and when off have it go through Path A and not Path B. What I need is FS4 not to change state when I move from one snapshot to the next. As if it was Snapshot Bypass unchecked. Where I'm running into trouble is, while that works fine for a Pedal Block, it doesn't seem to behave the same way for a Split/Merge block. I'm going to try an external footswitch to go between two delay times (using EXP2), and then that'll free up a FS on the HX and I can just turn the delay on and off as a "normal" pedal. I was thinking that might have something to do with it. I wasn't sure if I should change it from Discard, but I also didn't realize saving the state immediately would make it stick.
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