spawn2031 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 So I took my 500x out for a live audition with a band over the weekend and have come back with some issues that I need a little bit of help with. First off I know all about the issues of how the tone changes at higher volumes and that any final tweaking will need to be done at gig levels. What I am in need of knowing is how to crank up the volume from my gear while getting the least amount of added distortion from my gear. Currently I am using the 500x with the mixer levels set typically to 0, the amp model channel volume is variable but I try to keep it relatively low and the main volume knob at full. This runs into my Behringer iNuke which ended up needing to be cranked up to about 75% in order to get loud enough. I am concerned that with my power amp cranked that high that I am going to be introducing unintended power amp distortion so my thought was to crank up the levels inside the pod so I could decrease the output of my power amp. So my questions are this... 1) Am I right in my thinking that I could be introducing unwanted distortion from my power amp. 2) What are the best places to crank things up within the patch that wont introduce unwanted distortion? The four places that I can think of are the channel volume, mixer levels, main volume knob and the power amp level. Which of these four places can be safely adjusted without adding anymore distortion? Oh and btw, I won the audition.. now I just have to tame this beast for live stage use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 So I took my 500x out for a live audition with a band over the weekend and have come back with some issues that I need a little bit of help with. First off I know all about the issues of how the tone changes at higher volumes and that any final tweaking will need to be done at gig levels. What I am in need of knowing is how to crank up the volume from my gear while getting the least amount of added distortion from my gear. Currently I am using the 500x with the mixer levels set typically to 0, the amp model channel volume is variable but I try to keep it relatively low and the main volume knob at full. This runs into my Behringer iNuke which ended up needing to be cranked up to about 75% in order to get loud enough. I am concerned that with my power amp cranked that high that I am going to be introducing unintended power amp distortion so my thought was to crank up the levels inside the pod so I could decrease the output of my power amp. So my questions are this... 1) Am I right in my thinking that I could be introducing unwanted distortion from my power amp. 2) What are the best places to crank things up within the patch that wont introduce unwanted distortion? The four places that I can think of are the channel volume, mixer levels, main volume knob and the power amp level. Which of these four places can be safely adjusted without adding anymore distortion? Oh and btw, I won the audition.. now I just have to tame this beast for live stage use. I would think the mixer would be your best bet, followed by channel volume...if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will show up to tell me so, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palico Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 1) Am I right in my thinking that I could be introducing unwanted distortion from my power amp. 2) What are the best places to crank things up within the patch that wont introduce unwanted distortion? First CONGRATS on winning the audition! 1) Yes. 2) I agree with above. the mixer and channel volume. I would start with Channel Volume. Balance it to taste. On the POD I found the channel volume doesn't tend to add distortion, the "Master" on the DEP seems to more control that. Of course along with drive. Last option, you might need something with more wattage than the iNuke. If you pushing the iNuke to 75% to get the volume you want and can't make up enough input to it from the POD then you need more headroom = more wattage or maybe better power amp that can produce cleaner power. Another long shot, if you just really don't like the changes on the POD, insert another gain stage between the POD and Poweramp. Like a small physical line mixer with a pre-amp on it to bring the input to the power amp close to 0db. If got a 0db (real reading not POD mixer setting) going to the power amp there is nothing to do but replace the power amp with something bigger and/or cleaner. I seriously doubt you have 0db hitting that power amp, you likely way way below it. A bit below (-6) woudl be fine, maybe ever preferable, but too little and your having to push the crap out amp, which leads to distortion. Which is precely why I like low wattage amps but your case you want to get it cleaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn2031 Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Ok thanks guys, I will certainly adjust those up and see where that gets me. So the channel volume doesn't add distortion at all? I could have sworn I ran into a model where it I had that raised pretty high and it was horrible until I turned that down. ehh, might be my memory going too lol. Besides volume.. if I cranked both the channel and the mixer to max can I expect any adverse effects at all? Swapping out the power amp isn't really an option at his point I don't think. My cab is 120w and the Inuke is 150w. I don't think a more powerful setup will be in my future for a little while yet.. so I gotta make this work as best as possible. Worst case scenario I turn it down and mic the cab but I would like to make it work this way without having to do that yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palico Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The channel volume might add some distortion but not a lot, certinally less than distorting the power amp. You will likely just have balance the two out to find what sweet spot works best for you. At 150w heading to the cab you should have enough. But having the wattage and clean wattage can be two different things. You could go about as high as 240w or so on the power amp and just be careful not to over push it heading to the cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn2031 Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Hmmm, ok that is nice to know about the head. I was always told that it is best to keep the power amp as close to the rating of the speakers it is driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palico Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Hmmm, ok that is nice to know about the head. I was always told that it is best to keep the power amp as close to the rating of the speakers it is driving. To an extent that is true. If your power amp is 120w and your speaker cab is 120w (talking RMS or program wattage), then you can't overload the cab and smoke the speakers, that much is very true. But it fails to take into account the distortion factor of the amp. Differnt amps will distort at different points. So I I run the 120w amp to full output it's gonna distrort. So if i want to be able to get the most of the speaker I gotta have a power amp that can provide the 120w of clean power, that will mean it will be over 120w total. Anywhere from 3/4 to double is what I see most people use sucessfully. Now that does mean if you get above actually 120w heading to the cab (and you certinally can do that) then your going to destory the speaker(s), mostly likely be melting the voice coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn2031 Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Well that certainly makes sense. So in any situation I should try to get a setup where my power amp stays below 50% ish and never go more than double the total wattage of the speakers to be powered if I want clean power going to the speakers without blowing them. I've never been told this before however knowing what I have learned lately about power amp distortion it certainly does make sense. Is there anyway to know the danger line as you are turning up though? Is there a meter or anything that can be put inline that will monitor the RMS level of the signal heading to the speakers? The inuke that I have can bridge but when bridged at 8 ohms the wattage is 500. I assume that is way to high above the level of what should be even tried if I want to remain safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palico Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No way I'm aware of. Maybe someone else knows. I would try working with the channel volume first! I don't think I would try the Bridged mono seems too high to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Lots of good scoop for you there from Palico. What iNuke model are you using and what is your cab? Speakers? The Behringers generally overstate their true wattage by listing peak instead of RMS but the smallest one on their site lists at 2X300 into 4 ohms and you are stating 120 so I am guessing you have 8 ohm cab? not quite sure... pretty certain that is not 120 watts RMS from that amp. Generally speaking, solid state power amps are pretty clean right up until clipping. You should have some indicators on the front that will tell you when you are overdriving or approaching it with that amp. You will always get the most damaging power issues when you overdrive a SS amp into clipping. That type of signal to your speaker causes a lot of heat and that is what hurts the speaker. If you are not getting any limiters lighting up, turn up the power amp, its OK. Turning up the channel volumes and mixer levels can take the input signal too hot and introduce spikes even with the amp not turned up. Watch out for the limiters coming on. Is it a mono cab or are you running it in stereo? If its stereo, don't bridge it! If its mono, you should be OK bridging that amp with your cab. Like I said, the RMS watts aren't what Behringer advertises. The iNuke1000 says 1000 into 4ohms bridged so that is maybe 500 peak into 8ohms. Keep your Pod settings the way you have them now and you should get more clean volume and headroom that way without having to crank it. Be careful with it though, especially if you have a lot of spike volumes when you play. Just remember, no matter what you do you can't get 4X12 volume from a 1X12 cab... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Real good reading... How Much Amplifier Power Do I Need? Speaker selection and amplifier power ratings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn2031 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 ok I don't know why but for some reason the little modal that comes up for linking stuff keeps freezing when I try to link stuff... anyway at sweetwater.com search for Behringer i nuke NU1000 and Marshall MG412A cabinet 120w 8 ohm mono cab. So I should be ok Bridging my inuke with that cab? That's what I am running for my setup. That read on Crown's website needs to be stickied here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 yeah, I think you should be ok. just watch those limiter lights, stay out of the red and avoid the yellow if you can... I just type what I want, highlight it, click the link icon and paste the hyperlink in the blank... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn2031 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Thanks for checking out that stuff for me man. I won't lie, running 500 watts into a 120 watt cab scares me. So u are thinking I should leave my patch levels alone, leave the pos master volume maxed, bridge the amp and turn it way down and slowly notch it up until I get to my volume without hitting red or yellow lights on the amp. Sound about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb7170 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I use a Crown XLS 1000 -- similar setup... It expects Line Level, not Amp Level signals -- check your slider switches on the top right side, and use the 1/4" outputs. Turn down your master volume, then slowly bring it up with those settings so you don't hurt your speakers or your hearing. I set my amp to bridged mono and get ~700 Watts theoretically with a single speaker, but with headroom, I figure about half of that (~350 Watts) with a single 8 Ohm speaker, and use the master volume to adjust the level. In really loud events, like outside festivals, etc, I bring a second speaker and plug it into the first for 4 Ohm speaker load, and get a theoretical 1100 Watts -- again figuring half, 550W real world. I NEVER dime it -- it would peel paint. I use PA FRFR speaker/monitors (Yorkville), either on the floor in front of me, or on a speaker stand, and turn it way down for smaller inside gigs....I send Mic Level signal out the XLR to the soundman's system. He's happy, I'm happy... I have a Quilter Tone Block 200 on the way -- should get it tomorrow. Gonna see if that'll work for the smaller inside gigs and practice -- very small physical size & 200 Watts max. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 another thing to consider is this is a Marshall cab but not a 1960, these Celestions are not V30's. They are less powerful and have smaller magnets. For the price you could add a second cab in stereo and rock the world... still, follow the advice you've been given and you should be good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn2031 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Thank a ton guys, all of you. This is a bunch of great information and now, with Radatats last post I thinking of a second cab instead of replacing an power amp that can still do the job. David, I will check that switch as soon as I can, I am pretty certain it is set to line level there. So then if I had to turn the amp up to 75% at 150w to get loud enough before at 500w I should turn that thing down to around the 10-15% range to begin testing volume with the Master knob down as David suggested. Does that sound about right? Watching for the limiters and staying away from yellow as Radatats suggested. And if I ever decided to go with a second cab then I would just add the cab and switch it back from bridged to stereo correct? Seriously I really do thank you Palico, David and Radatats for taking the time to help educate me a bit here. Knowing what to pick to power what and what you can get away with without destroying your stuff is certainly can be confusing stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 no worries bro, glad to help. Right, everyone had good info to add. Yep, turn the amp to zero at first and gradually bring it up to volume watching for the limiters. According to the manual, its OK for them to occasionally light up, the yellow at least, but I would be careful with that and definitely no red. A second cab would be great but that's another 65 lbs to drag around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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