DT25 Master level vs driving the tubes

[vpera]

Hi all

 

In fact this is yet another pre/full amp model question.

 

I have had DT25 and POD HD500 for few years, but haven't had too much time to mess with it, except the minimum to get usable sounds for the band rehearsals and few gigs we have done so far. I'm still going through the rush years of my life...

We do not play loud in rehearsals or even on the gigs. In rehearsals the not-so-loud drummer is the loudest of us, but standing close to the amps makes it work.

 

JTV69S Black is on it's way, so some rethinking will happen in the near future. So:

 

Just read the Master Volume of POD HD500 nowadays effects the total volume with DT25, but in the firmware versions I currently use it has no effect (as I recall it, but need to re-check. It might effect but I haven't noticed it :-) In fact I had some problem of levels being low at some point at home...). I assume having the HD500 master at full level in the current FW versions is the same as using an old FW??

 

Since the Master volume I use is in the 9-11 o'clock range, I have elected to use the full amp models. I think I tried also the Pre-versions, but can't remember the results too well any more.

 

The Question:

 

What do you feel is the Master Volume control position (or positions, if new FW??) where the pre-models start to function properly?

 

I usually have the channel volumes at 50-100% depending on the amp.

 

I quess the only way to get the power tube distortion is to play loud enough. Setting the Master(s) high and channel volume low really does not do the trick?

 

Sorry if this is answered somewhere else. I have seen some similarish discussion, but few mention the actual volume. Links to older discussions would also be appreciated.

[radatats]

Been down this road before in depth.  Bottom line, keep your firmware upgraded to the latest version using Monkey and then set either one in what ever position you like.  There is no difference between the two.  They work together and seemingly in series.  There is no one combination that results in more tube drive than another.  Volume is the only way to fully drive the tubes and that requires both Masters to be used.  Personally I set my DT to around 12 oclock and use the POD master to dial in the loudness.  Channel volume on the other hand is primarily for balancing volume levels between various models once you have your master volume set.

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/4231-channel-volume-vs-master-volume/

[MartinDorr]

I measured peak and RMS signal levels coming out of my DT25 with a clean input tone and got minimum difference between peak and RMS levels when I set my DT at 3pm (not max at around 5pm what I would have expected). I believe this indicates that this is a dial position where the DT tubes add the most harmonic distortion to the clean input signal.

Since I did these measurements I have my DT Master parked at 3pm and control Volume strictly with HD Master. A setting of HD Master at 10-11pm should get you reasonable bed room level volume. When you play out adjust HD Master to your needs. You maty want to consider adding a graphic EQ pedal to your DT effects loop to further adjust tone globally to your venue. The new global EQ of the HD FW update does not work if you use Line 6 Link to connect to the DT.

As said above use amp channel volume to balance amp model signal output levels (I use a -12dBFS peak threshold to keep a healthy signal but do not get into soft clipping range of models). You can use USB and a DAW to check peaks).

Finally, you need to deal with DT amplification changes when you switch between different amp configurations (type I-IV). I do those with the mixer gain control. I added a 2 pager I put together with some info on how to put the mixer in the right ball park and then fine tune by ear.

Good luck,

Martin

 

DT25 Power Amp Parameters.pdf

 

[vpera]

Ok thanks, lots of useful/interesting info.

 

If you play using lower volumes (but not in the Low Volume Mode), let's say the settings Martin mentioned above (DT at 3 and POD at 10-11 o'clock) or even a bit below, do you find the sounds with amp pre-only -models satisfying or would using the full amp-models be noticably better?

 

Need to check myself as soon as I get the updates done and have time.

 

Edit: After reading the other thread, I think I don't play loud enough in rehersals to use the pre-amp models.

[radatats]

Edit: After reading the other thread, I think I don't play loud enough in rehersals to use the pre-amp models.

 

My opinion, you should ALWAYS use the preamp models to build your patches for the DT.  If you are not going to turn it up then use the LVM as that simply applies the power amp modeling to your tone in the DT to compensate for the lower volume.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is topology can have a big effect on perceived volume.  If your patch needs a little more drive/volume switch to topo 3 or 4 without any other changes and vice versa, 1 and 2 are quieter/cleaner.  Play around with it, you don't have to stick with the default topo position...

 

That being said, there is no absolute right or wrong way to do it.  If you find a full amp model works best for a particular tone, use it...

[vpera]

Ok, have to give pre-amp a chance at least, after I get the JTV, since I need to reconfigure the system anyway. I'm going to switch from FS1-8 to FS1-4+ABCD mode etc.

 

Do you know if there already is a practical way to copy full amp settings to pre-only. At least in the past this was manual parameter-by-parameter work. I can't understand if there still isn't a way to just toggle between pre and full or at least copy the settings in one step. 

[radatats]

Do you know if there already is a practical way to copy full amp settings to pre-only. In the past this was manual control-by-control work. I can't understand if there still isn't a way to just toggle between pre and full or at least copy the settings in one step. 

 

This conversion utility can be used to change from pre to full and vice versa... and also to convert 300, 400, 500, X files back and forth.  works well...

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/2164-pod-hd-tone-conversion-utility/

[vpera]

Just a quick note. Last night I updated POD HD500 FW, the old was 2.1.

 

While I checked my own presets, I noticed that the latests preset (amp: Divide by 9/15) actually was using pre-amp model (don't remember if that had happened by accident). I kind of have liked that preset (rough bright sound although perhaps lacking the sweetness with our volume levels), so in fact the pre-amp models seem to work for me, already. The minor lack of sweetness could be the amp model feature, or I just should play louder.

[BigBob-Irwin]

 

 

I measured peak and RMS signal levels coming out of my DT25 with a clean input tone and got minimum difference between peak and RMS levels when I set my DT at 3pm (not max at around 5pm what I would have expected).

 Hi Martin I tried this at gig volume using the master on the pod to control loudness unfortunately because most of us set up our patches at house playing volume the sound is very harsh to my ears when trying this method and you would have to eq each patch to calm it down. When I saw your post I thought it looked correct in the sense that in general when you push a valve(tube) amp into output overdrive it generally gets smoother and more compressed and slightly more mellow (the reverse of whats happening to the DT) and I used to point this out when I used to sell amps otherwise you would get the call on Monday morning saying the amp did not sound the same as it did in the shop to which I would say well you have to set up the tone of the amp at gig level which is perhaps what I need to do using your method. I will play about with it and see what transpires (When the wife is out).

 

 

Do you know if there already is a practical way to copy full amp settings to pre-only

 

If you mean to get the same sound going through the DT as you get in studio direct mode I have played with this one long enough for instance if I am in studio mode and plug the pod into my usb audio interface select the Marshall JTM45 play along with the Beano album or Gary Moore  still got the Blues it is pretty much in the ball park. Now unplug the pod from the interface set the amp for pre plug in the L6 link to the DT and play and it is nothing like the same saturation or likeness of the studio version. It does sound like a low volume JTM45 so I thought well to get the sound out of a real JTM45 the way that it was recorded it has to be outrageously loud and I have played a few including one with the original KT66's in the finals so I turned the master on DT25 way up but not like the original. To get close to the sound you would have to add overdrive either tube screamer or Tube Driver. So I guess what I am saying is there has not been enough thought put into the pre amps especially with the DT25 its as if the pre amps where an after thought with the main thought going on the full studio version which are excellent and have no complaint about that. 

[radatats]

 If you mean to get the same sound going through the DT as you get in studio direct mode I have played with this one long enough for instance if I am in studio mode and plug the pod into my usb audio interface select the Marshall JTM45 play along with the Beano album or Gary Moore  still got the Blues it is pretty much in the ball park. Now unplug the pod from the interface set the amp for pre plug in the L6 link to the DT and play and it is nothing like the same saturation or likeness of the studio version. It does sound like a low volume JTM45 so I thought well to get the sound out of a real JTM45 the way that it was recorded it has to be outrageously loud and I have played a few including one with the original KT66's in the finals so I turned the master on DT25 way up but not like the original. To get close to the sound you would have to add overdrive either tube screamer or Tube Driver. So I guess what I am saying is there has not been enough thought put into the pre amps especially with the DT25 its as if the pre amps where an after thought with the main thought going on the full studio version which are excellent and have no complaint about that. 

 

There are so many things that change when you switch from full amp/studio direct to pre/DT.  The biggest change, and you can't do anything about it, is the output mode automatically switches from studio direct to Combo or Stack (depending on DT model) which is a huge change to the tone.  You also change from the "recorded" tone to the "amp in the room" tone.  As long as you use bot full and pre in their default settings they should be the same but if you change things for the full model and then select the pre, all those changes are gone.  You are back to the default settings.  Also in studio direct you are getting the final tone reproduced (hopefully) through studio monitors.  With the DT, you are getting part of the final tone which is then being reproduced and affected by your physical speaker and cab.  There is no way to just switch from full/studio to pre/DT and have it sound the same.  (Nor should it as far as I am concerned).

 

Some of the other things you can try doing before adding distortions or other effects, change the topology for the amp on the DT.  The 4 different voicings have a big effect on tone.  You might get what you are looking for.  Try disabling the cab model or changing to a different cab/mic combination.  If you want to turn the amp up without blowing everyone else out, switch to Class AB, topology 1, and Triode.  You will be able to turn the amp Master higher to get a similar volume level.

 

The other thing that we forget is speaker breakup.  There is magic that happens with volume that is not all attributable to the tubes.  It is the physical effect of applying power to a speaker cone and the resultant interplay with the cabinet along with the movement of air.  Some of that is modeled into the full amp/cab/mic that you are hearing in studio direct.  With your DT you just have to make it happen to hear it or feel it. 

 

The final thing to remember is to use the LVM if you can't turn it up.  It is designed to use the full amp model characteristics to bring you closer to what you want to hear at lower volumes.  Take advantage of all the amazing features that were built into this gear.  I think there was an incredible amount of thought and creativity built into the whole HD/DT system.  It is not supposed to be an instant  reproduction of your studio direct recording tone; it is a real life, in the room amp that will do whatever you tell it to do...  Its up to us to use it to its full potential.  ;)

[BigBob-Irwin]

Hi Radatats thank you for this information I have tried the full studio model  with cabs and without and also tried your suggestion with different topographies but when  in full mode going through the DT there is a strange envelope of low volume digital noise on the lower notes which you do not get when recording direct. I then went back to the pre version and tried the  cab/no cab and switching topography and ended up where I started which is JTM45 bright pre no cab and and a tube driver permanently on.

I am going to buy the new Victory Red Dwarf amp when it comes out for live gigs  but will keep the DT25 for a while to see how I get on. I will keep the Pod500x and the JTV59 for home/studio use and maybe try and get a second hand M9 for delay reverb and tremolo for the send return on the Red Dwarf I all ready have some nice drive pedals if needed for the front end. As it could be possibly my last year of work I am also going to treat myself to a Les Paul with one of these G-Force tuning systems which seem to cause a lot of controversy on the Les Paul forums but will go and try one on the next trip south as I need to play in standard open E D G and A and just wonder how the LP would perform with these tuning's certainly my JTV59 can with a couple of pushed of a pot but I do miss the 2 volumes and tone pots of the LP as I have found I used them a lot (muscle memory) and have found myself trying to do this with the JTV.  

[radatats]

Yep, sounds like a new amp will solve your problems... good luck with that.  Mainly just have fun with it.