FR monitos for Helix with guitar and bass: 2x12" or 1x 15?

[mikisb]

I play guitar and sometimes bass with the helix. Mostly at home, but on small stages without PA too.

 

Now i want to buy for different reasons one or two active frfr monitors. For guitar only, i would take a 12+1. For bass, i rather would take a 15+1. Both would be loud enough for me.

What's the minimum for bass on small stages up to 300 people "against" acoustic drums and classic rock?

Are 2x10"or  2x12? as powerful with bass as a 1x15"

One monitor would be the cheaper solution and lighter than two, on the other hand i would like to try stereo wich i never did.

In know that it depends on the quality of the systems, but provided the same quality,

 

what would you prefer?

 

[HonestOpinion]

I play guitar and sometimes bass with the helix. Mostly at home, but on small stages without PA too.

 

Now i want to buy for different reasons one or two active frfr monitors. For guitar only, i would take a 12+1. For bass, i rather would take a 15+1. Both would be loud enough for me.

What's the minimum for bass on small stages up to 300 people "against" acoustic drums and classic rock?

Are 2x10"or  2x12? as powerful with bass as a 1x15"

One monitor would be the cheaper solution and lighter than two, on the other hand i would like to try stereo wich i never did.

In know that it depends on the quality of the systems, but provided the same quality,

 

what would you prefer?

 

A darn good question! I know to some extent it is a preference thing, some bass players prefer using several 10" speakers to a 15" and some although relatively few guitarists prefer a 15" speaker in their guitar amp or cab. If I were trying to find a good compromise for using the monitor for both guitar and bass I would definitely go with one or two 12" speakers.  Two speakers would push more air for larger crowds or a really loud band but one might do the trick and you could always mike it. To me a 15" is a little woofy and doesn't tighten up enough for good guitar monitoring where as I find a 12" speaker to be sufficient if not ideal for bass. If your PA has subwoofers it could certainly make up the difference.

 

I know a lot of manufacturers have been going to dual 12" speakers for subwoofers rather than a single 15" or 18". They sound great but to my ears nothing reproduces low end sound better than a larger speaker with plenty of headroom. So if you were asking about a PA subwoofer, I would opt for the larger speaker with plenty of amp power. For your purposes though, a compromise that will accommodate bass or guitar, I would go for either one or two 12"s.

[roscoe5]

I gigged with Helix into the effects return of my mesa m9 into powerhouse 212. Sounded great on bass, but sounds really good on the guitar patches too. Much more bottom that you may (or may not) want to eq out.

[mileskb]

I play guitar and sometimes bass with the helix. Mostly at home, but on small stages without PA too.

 

Now i want to buy for different reasons one or two active frfr monitors. For guitar only, i would take a 12+1. For bass, i rather would take a 15+1. Both would be loud enough for me.

What's the minimum for bass on small stages up to 300 people "against" acoustic drums and classic rock?

Are 2x10"or  2x12? as powerful with bass as a 1x15"

One monitor would be the cheaper solution and lighter than two, on the other hand i would like to try stereo wich i never did.

In know that it depends on the quality of the systems, but provided the same quality,

 

what would you prefer?

 

Indeed a good question.

 

If you are just using the speakers for monitors, and you don't have to worry about other musicians on stage hearing your monitors, than a pair of 10's or 12's would be fine.  I only say "pair" because you mentioned wanting to do some stereo stuff.  As far as "Are 2x10"or  2x12? as powerful with bass as a 1x15"?"  It really depends on how you are using them.   At close range, they are all fine, and the 2x10 or 2x12 might even sound better than the 1x15.  However a single 15 will throw bass farther.

 

I hope this helps a little.

[roscoe5]

A rig I used to have that I used in that size venue and even outdoors was a Markbass Little Mark III and a Traveller 210 cabinet. Really tight, pumchy, and loud. Best 210 I ever owned. Going into the effects return of that with Helix and guitar or bass would kill I think.

 

It had a really flat response from what I recall. Head was analog power section, not digital. The head should fit into Helix backpack. The cab was a one hander. You could load in/out in one trip.

 

GC usually has them so you could probably try it out.

[HonestOpinion]

Indeed a good question.

 

If you are just using the speakers for monitors, and you don't have to worry about other musicians on stage hearing your monitors, than a pair of 10's or 12's would be fine.  I only say "pair" because you mentioned wanting to do some stereo stuff.  As far as "Are 2x10"or  2x12? as powerful with bass as a 1x15"?"  It really depends on how you are using them.   At close range, they are all fine, and the 2x10 or 2x12 might even sound better than the 1x15.  However a single 15 will throw bass farther.

 

I hope this helps a little.

 

Glad you mentioned the 2 x 10", these might also work well like the Line6 L3's.  Best approach if possible is probably to take your Helix to the guitar store and play both bass and guitar through some different options.

[mikisb]

thanks for all yout hints!!!

 

testing in a guitar store would be difficult as even a single 10" can produce low end at lower levels (with EQ, it's just a change deepbass <=> volume).

I've ordered now a single 12" coaxial monitor with 350W RMS. For guitar it should really be enough and if this thing is OK for bass al low levels, i'll buy a second one.

This gives me some options to use the Helix stereo abilities, to "go out" only with one speaker for smaller gigs with less weight and to use both 12" for bass. I think, this should be enough, but it won't probably leave much headroom.

[mikisb]

done! ;)

 

today i received a pretty cheap monitor but with excellent reputation in it's class.

It's "the box Mon 12A" wich i think everybody in Europe can buy for just 279 Euro, freight included.

I't sold under different names, "proel" for example, but mostly sold as own brand from thomann.

It has a class D 300 W Amp  for the 12" and class AB 50W for the tweeter wich is integrated coaxial in the woofer. As often i'm close, i like coaxial speakers verry much. :wub:

 

The wedge is a beauty in my eyes with connections and switches at one side wich makes it verry comfortable for me. It can be placed on three different sides allowing three different angles.

After some hours  burn in i linked it to the helix via XLR. There is some noise when you're nearby and a little hum. Both just at a level wich is bearable for me in my ultraquiet basement. Some customers praise the sound but are complaning abouit the noise. For hifi purpose, it would be to much for me but as instrument amplifire, for me it's ok. We talk about 350 W RMS with a speaker of probably 98 dB/W7m, so it will probably cost a lot more to make such a device virtually noiseless.

 

About the sound: This thing sounds astonishing neutral to me. I think this would be difficult with a passive crossover, but as there seems to be a small DSP in it, it makes things much easier for the manufacturer.

Guitar really sounds great and reacts well to every small tweak. i can't test the power in my room cause i'm afraid to bust some windows. There is a switch to enhance lows when using as foh, i really don't need this and like it more linear to minimize differences in live and recording sound.

With bass, the sound is pretty linear, there's no deep end missing to my ears. I'll have to see up to wich level it stays like this to decide to keep it and buy a sacond or better to go for a 15". Im my 50 m² room i stopped at a level where i was afraid that windows and doors would brake in the vibrations. But on a real stage, i know there's another dimension.

 

The manufacturer claims 124 dB SPL max, but i never trusted these values as there are no details published under wich conditions. I think we can forget about producing 124 dB of 40 Hz with a single 12" :lol:

So for guitar, with a stereo setup and 2x 350W RMS, it should be enough for every situation. With bass, i'm still not shure.

 

For the first day, i'm pretty happy with this device. Regarding the price and size, i'm close to speak about a miracle ;)

[amsdenj]

The amount of bass you can get out of a speaker configuration depends on:

1. How much power you drive it with

2. How much total surface area you speakers cover

3. The free air resonance of the speakers

4. The displacement capability of the speaker

5. The resonance of the speakers in the cabinet

6. Whether the cabinet is ported or not

 

Ultimately it's all about moving air at the frequencies you want to produce. Generally it's easier and more reliable to use more, smaller speakers. This distributes the load, keeps the speakers closer to their linear region, has better coupling between the voice coil/magnet and cone, and has less problems with distortion caused by odd displacements in big cones. The volume of are moved depends on the surface area and displacement capability of the speaker, and the power you put into the speaker.

 

But speakers are somewhat magic because of all the physical variables. So it takes experimentation to get the cabinet that meets your needs.

 

I use 2 10's in a rear ported enclosure (the size of a Tremolux cabinet). It sounds fantastic with a 5 string bass. But its not going to move a lot of air in a big room.

[mikisb]

The amount of bass you can get out of a speaker configuration depends on:

1..........

Ultimately it's all about moving air at the frequencies you want to produce.

i agree, but you did'nt list one more important point when it comes to deep bass: The linear displacement, because surface x displacement = moved air ;)

 

Usually you will not be able to bring a speaker to it's electrical limit at let's say 40 Hz, because the displacement is the limiting factor.

At higher frequencies, it becomes less to unimportant and the electrical power handling becomes limiting.

 

The range of displacement ist huge between different speakers with the same size, so the moved air volume it it too. Some 15" move only +/- 1,5 mm, others are able to +/- 15 mm. It's ten times more moved air.

 

Unfortunally i don't know the displacement of the driver. It's invisible from outside - perhaps i find the time to measure it.

With the 300 W power and a large displacement, even this one 12" driver could be enough for me.  From 100 Hz and above, it certainly will.

[amsdenj]

Absolutely agree. I updated the post to include this critical component.

[klangmaler]

[...]

Some customers praise the sound but are complaning abouit the noise. For hifi purpose, it would be to much for me but as instrument amplifire, for me it's ok. We talk about 350 W RMS with a speaker of probably 98 dB/W7m, so it will probably cost a lot more to make such a device virtually noiseless.

[...]

 

 

This monitor is really for hum & noise fans...

[mikisb]

strange - i'm not a hum noise fan, but the device does it for me.

 

Maybe not every piece produces noise in the same way, as the comments at thomann are pretty different regarding noise. My copy makes more noise at home than in the office - perhaps a matter of internal shielding? But even at home in a absolutely quit room it's OK regarding sound and price. On stage, it is'nt worth talking about.

Could be an issue when miking and recording but hey - who would drive a helix with a miked frfr monitor for recording? :rolleyes:

 

So I did'nt talk about the best monitor available, but a good compromise between

 

sound

power

size + weight

features

price

 

If you know a better one, constructive hints are welcome ;)

[klangmaler]

There are already several threads dealing with (active) frfr speakers.

I use the Mackie Thump 12 as monitors, for example.