Distorted Distortion

[BlueBrain]

I've owned my HD500 for quite a while and have always thought something sounded off with moderate or higher drive or distortion, but I just finally spent a couple hours tonight thoroughly troubleshooting to confirm that it's not a single guitar, input clipping, clipping into the MOTU, etc.  I don't get any unwanted distortion when the drive is low or with a clean signal, but once the drive is turned up and there's any crunch, there's this added distortion that to me sounds like digital clipping or perhaps what's referred to as "crossover" distortion?  Whatever the case, the only way I can seem to eliminate it is to reduce the gain of the signal anywhere in the chain to the point that there is no distortion whatsoever.  

 

Again, it's not the guitar, cable, too-hot input into POD or too-hot input into the MOTU I'm using for recording.  In all cases there doesn't seem to be any signal clipping, it just seems like any distortion in the pod adds this layer of unwanted digital distortion, and has since the unit was new and through a couple rounds of firmware updates.

 

First half of the sample attached is blackface amp with drive lowered and tube drive in front (same added distortion wherever it is in the chain) and second half is blackface with drive up and tube drive off.  

 

It's quite noticeable at chord hit at 0:08 and again at 0:25 where the playing isn't so hard yet it's still there.

 

After troubleshooting this thoroughly it seems to me that it's just how the HD500 performs?

distortion.mp3

[BlueBrain]

If it'd be quicker/easier to review the sample this way:

https://soundcloud.com/potential178/pod-hd500-unwanted-distortion 

[bjnette]

I agree its not normal and would be annoying.

It is clipping internally somewhere.

It sounds like using an external preamp into the HD loop return to hard. In other words I have replicated the same using this method.

Another way is to up the s/pdif level into the DAW.

First up turn your monitors up. When too low you might tend to drive an input output too hot to sound right in the room.

Back off the volume in the mixer a bit

Check the motu input level again.

Make no mistake, it is digital clipping.

Can you find it?

[evilmikehoo]

I get it quite a lot as well. I'm using EMG active pickups and assumed that this is the cause - even  with the "Guitar In" switch in the "PAD" position. I generally turn down the guitar volume until most of it disappears. If I play thru a mixing board, I can get rid of most of it by turning down the board's gain control.

[MartinDorr]

Can't say whether it applies here but I found that all preamp models and the Studio EQ as well as the the Mid Focus EQ start to distort for any setting where the input or output is or gets significantly above -12dBFS (measured via USB with a DAW). I suspect that all HD models except the Mixer and possibly VolPan behave like that. A hot guitar input signal may already reach or exceed that level. With my JTV coming in as Variax (digital) I see levels at -12 to -18dBFS at Tone/Volume max depending on guitar model though I suspect the max levels have increased in the latest FW update for some guitar models.

[stumblinman]

I had this issue and a firmware reflash cured it. Just odd distorted overtones I could never seem to remove. Reflashed with same firmware and it went away. No rhyme or reason, just what worked for me. I see you've had it through multiple upgrades, so even though the tone is identical, you may have a different issue.

 

So with guitar volume as low as possible but with drive on amp/pedal cranked it still has the distortion issue?

[BlueBrain]

Hey all.  Thanks for the replies!

 

Firmware version is 2.10

I've tried both a strat with EMG's and a tele with dual humbuckers. In both cases I've tried with PAD on/off, via headphones direct out of the POD and via headphones and monitors out of the MOTO (XLR out from POD to MOTU).  I've tried with the master on the POD hot, with it low.  The only thing that works is to back off the volume on the guitar(s) and/or to back off the drive on the amp models ... but it doesn't stop that unwanted distortion until there's pretty much no wanted distortion (e.g. 0:26ish on the sample.) 

 

bjnette: if it's clipping, it's internal, I hear it no matter what I output to (headphones out from the pod, XLR out to MOTU, etc)

 

evilmikehoo: I assumed at first that it was the signal being too hot from my strat with EMGs as well; however, the only way I can get rid of it is to cool the signal (before the POD or via drive) to the point that there's pretty much no distortion left.  

 

martindorr: thanks, I'll see if I can figure out where my input levels are at specifically, but again, I've tried cooling them down quite a bit and can't seem to eliminate the clipping without simultaneously eliminating the actual drive/distortion wanted in the tone. 

 

stumblinman: I seem to have the most up-to-date firmware, and yes, with the guitar level low but the amp drive/channel volume up, the clipping sound is still there.

 

Thanks all!  I've also submitted a tech support ticket.  

[stumblinman]

Like I said, you may try a reflash of the same firmware if you haven't already. It sounds exactly like mine prior to doing that. Download it to your computer and flash from the file instead of the auto-download and flash option. Never hurts. Good luck with the support ticket too.

[BlueBrain]

Thanks, I'll try the firmware re-update.  It certainly seems like an internal problem with digital clipping so who knows, worth a try!

[BlueBrain]

Nope, firmware re-update didn't make a difference.  Checked again and it's there on every amp unless the signal from the guitar(s) is so low that the there's no distortion at all.  :(  Definitely either something wrong with this unit specifically, or is it possibly just how these sound and most users don't hear it?  A non-discerning ear might not separate it out from the intended distortion?  I'll be curious to see what tech support says about it.

[offashead]

Nope, firmware re-update didn't make a difference.  Checked again and it's there on every amp unless the signal from the guitar(s) is so low that the there's no distortion at all.   :(  Definitely either something wrong with this unit specifically, or is it possibly just how these sound and most users don't hear it?  A non-discerning ear might not separate it out from the intended distortion?  I'll be curious to see what tech support says about it.

 

This was bought up in the Hiwatt fizz topic  http://line6.com/support/topic/2296-hiwatt-fizz/. I couldn't quite explain my problem but it is the same as yours. I have updated to the new firmware too. Having listened to the clip, I have the exact same problem and like you and it's on all amp models. I have spent days on the HD pod ( bean) trying all sorts of things but to no avail. Please let us know the outcome.

Thanks OH.

 

For reference, I am using a JTV 69, a Strat and various other organic guitars and they all end up with the same problem through the desktop HD 500.

[offashead]

I have just updated the firmware again and it's still there. As Blue Brain has pointed out some may not hear the distortion but having had my ears irrigated yesterday and having an already acute sense of hearing I can hear it. My hearing is that sensitive that I had my Les Paul sent to a tech for tuning problems that were not even present to the tech, in fact he deduced that there was nothing wrong with the guitar and my hearing was to sensitive to tuning. But this is a different matter concerning the Pod.

[bjnette]

I can hear the clipping in your audio file and it is unmistakably there. A kind of clip that ticks along.I couldn't live with it.

My unit doesn't do it and I got an array of guitars.touch wood

I am sure the support ticket will resolve it. 

Please keep us informed.

[BlueBrain]

Hey all, thanks for the replies & the validation that I'm not imagining things.  :)  I'll let you know what support says about it when I hear back from them, though I'm sure their initial response will be to do all the things I've already indicated I've done (latest firmware, lower guitar signal, etc) - hopefully I can convince them it's not user error and get an answer.

[offashead]

Hey all, thanks for the replies & the validation that I'm not imagining things.   :)  I'll let you know what support says about it when I hear back from them, though I'm sure their initial response will be to do all the things I've already indicated I've done (latest firmware, lower guitar signal, etc) - hopefully I can convince them it's not user error and get an answer.

Cheers. I will open a ticket or call Line 6 Rugby UK ( Just down the road from me) when you report back with their response, unless they have an easy, do-able, fix at home solution that is?.... May I ask,..... Are you from the UK Blue Brain? When did you get the pod? I got mine ( desktop) two weeks ago from 'Sounds live'

[BlueBrain]

I'm in Canada and I have the POD HD500 floor board, which I purchased when it was new on the market.  I never liked how anything distorted sounded right from the start but assumed it was user error and have just now invested the time to figure out that it's something wrong with the unit, not my guitar(s) or ignorance of how to set levels properly.

[offashead]

I'm in Canada and I have the POD HD500 floor board, which I purchased when it was new on the market.  I never liked how anything distorted sounded right from the start but assumed it was user error and have just now invested the time to figure out that it's something wrong with the unit, not my guitar(s) or ignorance of how to set levels properly.

I believe you mate. I have spent many years with vintage valve amps and have had nothing to do with the digital world for many years until recently. I think the potential is there with this technology but not the way I'm hearing it at the moment. If that is how it's supposed to be then there is something very wrong, like you, I have tried everything I can think of to no avail. It can't just be the two units on the whole forum can it? I had a Spider combo many  years ago which went out the door as fast as it came in, I do hope this Pod does not end up going the same way?

[BlueBrain]

Just a quick update for anyone who is interested: so far tech support has just been asking me

 

- if I have active pickups (I've tested it with three guitars, and it's only with drive/distortion so wouldn't seem to be a hot guitar signal issue in the first place) 

 

- if it's happening on every preset (I did start by saying "It seems to be on any amp model or distortion FX")

 

- if it's happening on USB output since I mentioned I'm using a MOTU (I had already mentioned that I'd eliminated post-POD clipping, I get the distortion sound even via headphones out of the POD, and the issue isn't related to channel/master volume, it's specifically drive/distortion level)

 

- to check input settings - the one thing I hadn't done, but whether they're set to default 1M, auto or 22k, doesn't resolve the problem.

 

So, currently still no answer.  I've spent more time with it, confirmed that it's any amp I try with any input setting, any guitar, and any output channel.  It seems to me to clearly be a problem with the unit, either this one specifically, or a flaw present in all of these that most users just don't hear.  I'm not sure what solution they can/will offer since the warranty is up, so I'm anticipating being SOL, but fingers crossed they surprise me.

[offashead]

Just a quick update for anyone who is interested: so far tech support has just been asking me

 

- if I have active pickups (I've tested it with three guitars, and it's only with drive/distortion so wouldn't seem to be a hot guitar signal issue in the first place) 

 

- if it's happening on every preset (I did start by saying "It seems to be on any amp model or distortion FX")

 

- if it's happening on USB output since I mentioned I'm using a MOTU (I had already mentioned that I'd eliminated post-POD clipping, I get the distortion sound even via headphones out of the POD, and the issue isn't related to channel/master volume, it's specifically drive/distortion level)

 

- to check input settings - the one thing I hadn't done, but whether they're set to default 1M, auto or 22k, doesn't resolve the problem.

 

So, currently still no answer.  I've spent more time with it, confirmed that it's any amp I try with any input setting, any guitar, and any output channel.  It seems to me to clearly be a problem with the unit, either this one specifically, or a flaw present in all of these that most users just don't hear.  I'm not sure what solution they can/will offer since the warranty is up, so I'm anticipating being SOL, but fingers crossed they surprise me.

Same for me as regards their answers, everything has been checked. Mines HD bean) three weeks old so the warranty stands. I will call them  this week.. BlueBrain. Send me your details including support ticket number please and who you spoke to. Did they listen to the clip?

 

And, has anyone on here experienced the http://line6.com/support/topic/2420-distorted-distortion/ phenomenon even if they think it's normal? Regards OH.

[radatats]

I've been having similar issues and was getting pretty discouraged overall with my gear.  I tried all the various input settings and adjustments with no luck at all.  The other day I was playing around with the OUTPUT settings and changed to STUDIO DIRECT.  Bingo... clipping gone, tone clear, recording levels usable, headphone tone sharp and clear, nice distortion...  I am using the XLR outs to Steinberg UR-22 into Studio One...  so far seems like the solution for me... Shure SRH440 cans...

 

- VERY IMPORTANT -

 

The VOLUME knob (Ch. Vol on the amp block in HD Edit) is a tone-independent volume control that affects the output level of the amp block. The Master DEP (down by the Hum and Bias controls) is what should be used to get a "pushed" power section, not this control. I recommend keeping this knob at conservative levels (~50% or less), otherwise you can get unwanted clipping - either of sensitive downstream effects like many of the EQ's or of the Pod's internal digital resolution.

 

This is from MeAmBobbo's excellent PodHD Guide:  http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/.  If you haven't read it yet, you should.  It will save you a lot of trouble and heartache...

[BlueBrain]

Hey radatats, thanks for the tip. It seems like if it were an output issue it would be clipping based on volume/signal level not on drive/distortion level, but I was keen to check this out regardless.  Looks like the output on my unit has always been set to Studio Direct, so sadly, that wasn't the problem/solution.  :(

 

Thanks again for the suggestion!

[BlueBrain]

In case anyone is monitoring this thread, after a bit of back and forth on a support ticket directing me to check input settings, etc, the final support reply has been: 

 

"At this point I think the best recourse is to take the 500 to a service center and have it checked out:"

 

I think my unit has performed like this since it was brand new and I doubt it's a hardware defect.  If it's my guitar input signal being too hot or bright, it's an issue with all three guitars I've tried, so perhaps it's hardware that needs to have a list of compatible guitar/pickup combos listed.  It doesn't matter if it works well with some guitars, if it doesn't work with the ones I have, it doesn't work.  

 

I have to put this on the back-burner until early October.  I will try again then to see if it can be resolved, but at the moment I'm feeling that it's just a faulty product and that chances are most or all of them sound like this and most users just don't notice the clipping distortion sound.  It's my fourth line6 product but I think it will be my last.  I need things that work, not waste my time.  The more complicated their software/hardware is getting, the less faith I have that they can make it bug free.

[bjnette]

You know I have a peavy valve king royal 8  classA design 5 watt and it makes a similar noise. It is a sort of rattling scratchiness especially when hold inga chord or play on the bassier notes. It makes it unusable except at lowest volumes does it sound okay.

It is more prevelent on the master volume cranked than the gain cranked and with the tone control more bassy too. The is something wrong with it for sure.

 

Any way different senario, but similar noise.

 

rads advice is good too for I was experiencing a similar prob to yours on the JCM 900 but when I listened another night thru h'phones it wasn't there. I been trying to replicate it, the only thing I forgot to try was listening on h'phones on the motu interface.

I'll check it out tonight.

[ntymchak]

When I bought the XT Live, in 2006, I had similar problems, to the point I just abandoned the product.

In 2011, I bought the HD500, thinking they had sorted it out. Wrong again, it happened again, and as I´m not a NASA engeneer, I haven´t been able to solve it.

Today, I just use the POD to home recordings, but I don´t trust it to anything else.

It should be simple, and I think the POD should sound at least as good as any solid state pedal, but it doens´t. I just gave up...

[radatats]

Well the PODHD-500 is just a hardware solution with upgradeable software.  The hardware is mostly OK except for some connector concerns and the 500X is even better.  The software however, is the area that needs the most attention.  I don't think it is the actual coding so much as the poor editing interface/GUI for your desktop.  That is my biggest complaint with this gear and if they would do a major revision of that piece I think a lot of users would be very happy and some of these issues would go away.  There should be some way of monitoring the gain structure to identify clipping as it is introduced to the signal path.  Unlike analog gear, you can't just crank every module and expect the final output to be OK...  Once clipping is introduced, even at an early stage, it is replicated and amplified at every subsequent step.  Simply turning down the final output level will not eliminate it.  There are so many ways you can increase the signal along the way it is not surprising that it is hard to get a great final product.  The fact that we so often do get a great tone is testament to the quality of the software in the first place. I made a lot of suggestions about this on the product improvement suggestions link...

 

Here's a thought... How about a built in brick wall limiter for every stage? Shouldn't need to use DSP for that and it could be turned on or off globally with a single switch/button on the hardware or in the software. That would allow you to drive every stage as much as you want and virtually eliminate any chance of introducing clipping...  You listening Line 6?

[bjnette]

I for one wouldn't want brickwall limiting at any stage in the HD but certainly would like to see a clipping indicator.

Or if there was the option to not have it. It would require DSP. not a good good idea.

I don't know of any artist who gets their tone using brickwall limiting in their chain.

Besides sounding horrible and harsh ear fatigue would stop you playing and your audience from listening.

Leave it for the Mastering Engineer over the whole mix and only enough to bring the program material up to commercial levels.

[BlueBrain]

Hey all.  Final update: I've spoken with an authorized service centre and they've told me that the only thing they could do to possibly resolve this sort of defect with the product is to replace the main board but that this would cost as much or more than just buying a new unit. I've told this to Line6 but their final response before marking the ticket as "assumed answered" was to take it to a service centre.

 

The warranty on my unit has expired, but this problem was always there and the two techs I spoke with at different service centres agreed that the problem is mostly likely an always present hardware or software defect, not age-related failure.

 

I've owned several Line6 products but based on the performance of this one and my customer service experience, this will be my last.

[MartinDorr]

Depending on what kind of input signal you use (native guitar signal, a little boosted, or heavily overdriven) and the Drive setting on the amp, a 50% channel volume may not be low enough to keep you out of compression/distortion territory. If you have any way of measuring (e.g., via USB and DAW meter) my advice is to keep below -12dB input or output on any model except the mixer. As radatats described, the channel volume know of the amp is tone-independent, BUT only if you stay below the -12dB level. If you go higher you initially just get a little soft compression (which may not be bad for what you want tone wise anyway) but at about -6 to -3dB you will hit distortion, more or less hidden by the tone you're going for.