Volume block position?

[theredguitar6]

i'm now 2 weeks into planet Helix and was brave (stupid) enough to gig it on Saturday.  Small(ish) venue so i played chicken and took my normal 212cab and stereo tube power amp.  Didn't risk it through the PA yet.

 

I was surprisingly good and i'd created a couple of presets ( one for each guitar) based on similar amps/effects and similar snapshots.

The only thing that didn't quite feel right was the volume pedal. I'm going to have another look at this but have the following question:

 

I've seen some of you mention the position of the volume block works the same as in a traditional rig  -i.e  - if placed at the front of the chain it will reduce volume ( and therefore gain) into the amp block - or, if placed after the amp, the amp tones and gain will remain constant.

 

I'm not finding this.   I've placed my volume block number 2 in the chain - after the compressor but before wah and everything else.

It works fine  - but it works as a 'master' vol control not as some of have described.  In a 'real world' scenario with vol pedal in front , it will work like the guitars vol .. so backing off is going to reduce input to the amp and 'clean up' by reducing gain. 

 

I'm ok with the result because i do actually want a 'master' vol pedal to balance things for different songs etc ....but i'm wondering if i should place it later in the chain?  am i messing up the sound of the amp block with it in front and maybe set at 50%??

 

Thanks guys

[hideout]

Something's amiss. It should not be acting like a master volume. Without further info, I don't know what advice to give you.

[PeterHamm]

I might misunderstand what you are saying, but here goes.

 

If you are using your volume pedal to be at 80%, imho, that's a fool's errand ultimately. (Not that you're a fool... just the task is unwise).

 

If you are trying to back off the guitar a little before it hits the input of the amp model, that's what your guitar's volume control is BEST at.

 

imho, the volume pedal works best as a simple on/off, swell to on/off. Trying to use a volume pedal to be "in between" is just too fiddly.

 

Volume control before the amp will indeed change the amp's tone. I never do this, because, again, that's what my guitar's volume control is BEST at.

 

Volume control AFTER the amp and cab (but before delays and time-based FX) will not change the tone of the amp.

[theredguitar6]

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify:  I'm not trying to reduce the guitar volume into the amp - I'd always use the guitar for that.

I want to have the ability to adjust output volume to power amp - thus giving me the necessary tool to either reduce or increase volume for solos and/or changes on stage.

Just like ( those of us who are old enough) i did with my big stage racks  --in the 80's?lol

Anyway:

My point is that when i place the vol block before ( in this case)  a Teemah into fender tweed --- THAT vol block does not clean up the sound (like backing of guitar vol does) - it simply reduces the output- as though it were ( in real world) after the amp.  However as PeterHamm kindly pointed out  - the vol block does sound better AFTER the amp.  It definitely affects tone.

I'm going to build some new simple presets today and play around with positioning of the vol block.

I'll report back

Thanks for your help 

[FlyingsCool]

I think you'll find your results will vary depending on the amps and effects you are using.

 

In most situations, I have found the positional relationship of Volume pedal in the chain does work as advertised.  But some amps don't seem to respond as well as others to "cleaning up" let's say.  And, like you, I also found less of an effect into a Teemah, as well.  It seemed as tho the Teemah on was just pushing the amp, and the Teemah did not seem to clean up much with change of either Guitar volume or Volume pedal. (I did not do an exhaustive test, just sort of noticed the effect in passing while testing some of the factory presets (where they always put the volume pedal in front for some reason)).

 

Did you test with the compressor off?  (Isn't the compressor going to change the character of the input to the point using the the volume pedal after it will act more like a volume change?)

 

Did you notice a different reaction using your guitar volume knob vs the volume pedal?

 

Did you try the logarithmic setting on the volume pedal? (I'm no expert, but I don't think the guitar volume pots are linear??)

[theredguitar6]

Ok ...done some more research,

firstly it turns out - for some bizzare reason that the volume block in the presets is was using live -- was corrupted.

something must have happened as i was setting up preset ONE - and then i used this as the basis to build two more - so the problem was copied across.

After have set up some simple 'test' presets with one vol block and one amp -  i found ( as had been mentioned) that the behaviour in front of the amp is indeed more like the guitar vol - and after the amp is more like a master vol.

I then went back and deleted the vol block in my live presets ,  re installed the vol block and bingo - it worked completely differently -- as i would expect.

Then went on to do further test and -- yes -- absolutely as @FlyingsCool  says... the behaviour of vol blocks does vary considerably with different amps and pedals.

Thanks for all the help .

I think i'm sorted now! ....till the next problem !