Ok...I'm out of ideas...troubleshooting help/preset signal issues

[themetallikid]

So, I'll apologize if this is all over the place, or if I miss some details...but I'll try to be thorough as I'm out of ideas on what could be causing this to happen.

 

Problem:  At my gigs, I'm having issues (especially clean sounds) where signal seems to be getting choked/gated/compressed (badly) where it is killing the sustain.  

 

Example: Last night I went with the approach of using banks of presets designed around genre's of music.  Classic Rock, 80's, 90's & Modern banks.  Each with 8 presets representing (usually) a clean/gritty/crunch/boosted type tone and then lead versions of most of those.  

 

Problem: For the sake of keeping the conversation about one specific preset, lets talk about my 80's bank...specifically the clean preset.  I have it set with the JC-120, nothing extreme in the amp block setting wise. I'm using an IR I got from Fremen...nothing crazy going on setting wise there.  The rest of the preset consists of this for a chain:  Gain Block (bypassed/External 2), Wah Block (bypassed/External 2), Compressor (Deluxe Comp, stock settings, except Mix at 80%, 2 EQ's placed after the IR, Plateau Reverb (minimal decay/mix settings), Input Gate is off

 

Pretty straight clean sound....for the last couple months, I've noticed but not been able to pinpoint what is causing my signal to be essentially lost.  I'll strum a chord and it will literally audibly sustain for about 1.5 seconds and then die off pretty quick.  This has made me think the usual culprits for that type of reaction of compressor pumping/choking, gate set too high, etc.  Something that is killing the signal before its getting to the Amp Block and passing through to the output.  A few weeks ago, I did find that some settings in my wireless system were a little out of whack...I corrected those and went back through my presets to adjust the gain structure in them.  Everything should be fine...wrong, had the same issues afterwards. That partially eliminates the wireless...what fully eliminates the wireless is that while troubleshooting last night I removed it from my 'signal chain'...more on this in a moment.

 

Troubleshooting:  So last night here is what happened.  I go to check my latest tweakings knowing that I'll need to make some adjustments at the show...pull up the clean sound to get a level set and I get a ringing D chord for maybe 2 seconds at most.  I start troubleshooting, I turn off compressor, check the gate settings...gate is off, compressor bypassed.  Strum chord....same result...no sustain or even signal...sometimes I'd strum and get hardly any signal at all.  Ok...lets try a different preset...maybe something is jacked with that one...I try the Classic Rock Clean (different Amp/IR/EQ's, but generally same preset design)....Same issue.  Ok...back to the 80's Clean to keep things simple.  I check the wireless display and after hitting a chord to ring out...I can see that the input meters are clearly showing a fair amount of signal after the sound of the chord has faded...Makes me think its not wireless related then...but lets remove the wireless from the chain (I tweak at home most times with a cable plugged in)...guitar>Helix....same result.  My sound guy was seeing a hotter signal than with the wireless....but it was not changing how the preset sounded...still getting choked out.  Ok, lets try changing guitars...there is a little static when moving the pickup selector or at the very top end of the Volume knobs range...but usually not enough that there is this type of signal issue.  Put on the other guitar.....same issue...So at this point I ask the sound guy if he has anything on my guitar.  Gate...compressor....anything that would be killing the signal as I'm hearing through the wedge (same wedge I tweak through at home, active Mackie).  He has nothing on it, he says he has a gate on it, but its set so low that I could breathe into my pickups and it would open up (whats the point then right, lol)

 

So at this point I've ruled out:

Guitar

Wireless

Single preset (seems to be on which ever one)

 

Is there anything else I should be looking at?  I spent 2 hours tweaking Friday night and didnt have any issues when monitoring via my headphones...or Saturday afternoon when I checked it via the powered wedge.  This makes me think that there has to be something post helix that is killing my signal....but in all my years of using processors (6 of which is with this sound guy) I've never encountered something like this.  

 

I cannot upload the preset as I'm on a laptop that still runs XP and there is not an editor compatible with this OS...I'm at a loss....

 

I should also mention that I do not have these issues at practice, which is through a different digital board and we use IEM's there.  I questioned if for some reason the headphones out and XLR's had something different happening between the 2, but I use the XLR outs at practice and I generally do not tweak the output settings from the 'ALL' setting. 

[Mturner]

Since things sound right through your headphones and at practice, is it possible that there is a gate on the FOH mixer at your gig?   I've had sound guys do that on guitars when they are used to hearing hum from a high gain tube amp. Unfortunately it will do exactly what you are describing and choke your sustain.

Edit: I re-read your post and saw there is a gate on FOH. If it's really set that low then you shouldn't need it anyway. Turn that off and check phantom power.

 

And if you are using your XLR outs, make sure the FOH is NOT sending you phantom power. That does weird things to the Helix.

 

 

[jbuhajla]

If you aren't hearing that choking out in your headphone jack on Helix or at home, it is in the PA at your gig. If you remove the gate, compression, and any other items from your guitar signal and still experiencing that, use a DI box so you can try the 1/4" outs. 

[specracer986]

I'm having a signal strength problem through my XLR outs, and I'm not sure it's the same as you are describing or not. After playing for a while, my signal loses volume and gets all nasally sounding. It happened to me Saturday night at a gig. I was supposed to do the intro to a song with a preset that's normally pretty hot and I had a weak lifeless signal, and turning up the output volume knob just made a bad signal slightly louder. I had the band wait while I rebooted the Helix. When it came back on, I blew everyone away because the volume knob was still up high. But I had my signal back and we finished the set. This has happened to me with the output set to both mic and line level, going into my DXR12, which is also set to the Helix output of either mic or line level. I'm going to switch back to 1/4" out for a while and see if it happens there, so that when I bring it into a service center, I'll be able to give them a full accounting of the problem. 

[themetallikid]

Thanks for the replies guys....couple things

 

1) Specracer - that does not sound like the same issue that I am having. 

 

2) I agree that it is FOH related...getting my sound guy to believe that is harder than you'd think.  If I recall correctly, he did turn the gate and such off that he did have on there, and it didn't make a difference, but I'd have to confirm that. 

 

3) I have a DI, I will have to try the 1/4 outs and see if I get the same thing, unfortunately it will be about a month before we have another gig. 

 

4) I'll mention the phantom power thing, never would have thought of that. 

 

5) I don't think this would be an issue, but I'll ask......I run headphones at home to get some stereo delays going....running L/R XLR's out shouldn't require any different settings correct?  As long as the locks are stereo that should be all I need?  I only run 2 XLR's at the shows...

 

6) just to piggy back on this again....does anyone have any sort of permanent solution for the Helix not reading the Expression Pedal Max Value correctly.  I have been using my Mission Engineering pedal and its been great for the most part...however, occasionally it will only read (toe down) 97%, 98%, 93% etc...its never consistent.  and as soon as it is consistent, it will then start reading something else.   I switched to the onboard one as I thought that would be more consistent...and the first show I used it at (after multiple good practice runs at home) it started reading 91% with toe down.  Tried different methods to get it to read, but nothing worked.  So back to the Mission pedal this past weekend, sure enough....first preset with a Wah on, it was reading 97% max...I had all my auto engages set to 98% because that was what I was getting at home consistently.  What gives with this?