Jump to content
SaschaFranck

CC Assign Snapshot Issue

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

(Fwiw, new to this forum, finally got my own Helix some days ago - but I've had two units borrowed for a longer period of time before already, so the Helix isn't exactly new to me.)

 

Ok, I'll try to decribe my issue.

I'm switching an EQ on for my lead sounds. Works fine through snapshots. I'm now using the output level to balance all my lead sounds - and I want this to be valid patchwide, in other words, the output level shouldn't be saved with the snapshot. And by default it isn't, either. So far so good.

Alright, but I also have a BCR2000 knob controller (or alternatively an Android MIDI fader app that does the same thing) and one of the encoders is controlling my lead EQs output level. And once that assignment is set, the output level of the EQ is automatically saved with a snapshot.

In a nutshell: No CC assignment = EQ level can be adjusted patchwide, CC assignment = EQ level is valid per snapshot.

 

Is there any way to change this behaviour or is this a bug?

 

Cheers

Sascha

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's working the way it's intended to work, and therefore not a "bug". They've recently implemented a "snapshot ignore" function (called Snapshot Bypass) on the Effect Bypass function, and it would be nice if they'd do that for all MIDI controllable functions, but that would be a new feature. Post it over on Ideascale and link your idea here, I'll vote for it, as I'm sure others would!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, I see - I sort of expected this kind of answer already but was still hoping for something I might be able to do.

Still, why would you say it is intended to work like that? I mean, all I'm doing is to kind of replace a Helix controller with a CC message - and that's rather different from using snapshots in terms of how I try to deal with things. I could imagine how this is related on a technical level (ending up with something kinda like "parameters in white brackets are controlled, regardless whether its a snapshot message or a CC") but on a functional level I don't see how this could be intentional design because it's two things not exactly connected to each other by the way you utilize them.

Whatever, I will post it on Ideascale and see what happens.

 

Fwiw, still quite a dissapointment. I was creating this really elaborated patch (supposed to serve my needs for pretty much any gig) and had a true blast because controlling things both through that Android app and the BCR2000 worked incredibly well. Kinda like an analog setup controlled by MIDI and loop switchers with all the relevant parameters straight under your fingertips. Every bit what I wanted. Then, as the last step, I started to set up snapshots and *poof* - there went my marvelleous setup. I can now pretty much take the BCR back to the basement until this is sorted (in case it will be sorted).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Still, why would you say it is intended to work like that?

 

Check this out!

 

In Global Settings - PREFERENCES I have Snapshot Edits set to RECALL.

Using the APCmini controller connected via USB thru my studio laptop to my Helix Floor to control levels with a slider, and without manually performing a SAVE at any point:

 

In Snapshot 1, using the Slider on the APCmini, I set LEVEL on the Output Block to something other than the default of zero, say, -10.0.

Go to Snapshot 2, retains that setting.

Go to Snapshot 3 reverts to zero.

Snapshot 1 is still -10.0, as is Snapshot 2.

If I go from SS1 or SS2 to SS4, it's still -10.0.

If I go from SS3 (0.0) to SS4, it's 0.0.

This applies to EVERY SS past SS3.

If I go from SS1 or SS2 (both -10.0) to SS3, it reverts to zero, and going from SS3 to any SS > SS3 it stays at zero.

If I go from SS1 or SS2 to any SS > SS3, the SS retains the SS1/2 value!

 

I then tried this using my FCB1010 with my HX Stomp in my office. Of course the Stomp has only three Snapshots, but I got the same results vis a vis SS3.

 

Now THAT'S a BUG!

 

Oh, yeah, and I did this both with the HX Editor AND manually on the devices. Same result, so it's NOT an HX Edit problem.

 

I'm going to post this on the Bug Thread. I'm not sure if L6 ever responds there, but now TWO of us know about it, so if I turn up dead.......:-)

 

EDIT: The more I play with this, the more inconsistent the results. Maybe I'm just failing to grok the convoluted logic involved. Will now have breakfast and report back later after further experiments!


 

 

Edited by rd2rk
add info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See, that's exactly my observation (my snapshot preferences are set to "discard", though, but that shouldn't matter), even if I haven't elaborated on it as carefully as you so far.

And as you say (which is my observation, too): Control a parameter straight on the Helix and everything's fine and dandy, parameters can be controlled patchwide (unless you explicetely set the parameter to be controlled by snapshots). Use a CC instead and things just don't work anymore. It's like "once there's white brackets around a parameter, snapshots will rule the world!" - regardless whether the brackets are a result of some CC mapping.

This might in fact not exactly be a bug, but maybe just something nobody thought of. Out of the Helix folks I know, exactly nobody's using a MIDI controller and CCs for these kinda things, so the strange things going along with it might as well have slipped the attention of the testing team because it's a setup only nerds like me would use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once you assign a parameter to any controller, the value that it's set to when the snapshot is saved will be recalled with the snapshot. This is true for all controllers. The exceptions are the EXP1, 2 and 3 controllers. If you have the EXP# Position parameter set to Global or Per Preset, than the actual position of the pedal will dictate the value of the parameter. The challenge with this particular issue has to do with the very nature of MIDI itself. The MIDI controller isn't sending a steady stream of data. It only sends data when it changes position. So the Helix doesn't have a way to track a position of an external knob or pedal. It can only know the value of the CC when it receives it.

 

The one workaround maybe to assign the Level parameter to EXP3 (if you're not actually using EXP3 for anything else) and assign the associated CC (CC#3) to the MIDI controller knob/fader you want to use. If you do that and set the EXP3 Position parameter to Global or Per Preset, the saved value may be overridden, but I'm not completely sure about that.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, phil_m said:

The one workaround maybe to assign the Level parameter to EXP3 (if you're not actually using EXP3 for anything else) and assign the associated CC (CC#3) to the MIDI controller knob/fader you want to use. If you do that and set the EXP3 Position parameter to Global or Per Preset, the saved value may be overridden, but I'm not completely sure about that.

 

That works!

Unfortunately, it's a very limited workaround, as it limits the number of MIDI Controllers you can use to the number of unused Expression Pedals available.

Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick....

Thanks phil!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

See, that's exactly my observation (my snapshot preferences are set to "discard", though, but that shouldn't matter), even if I haven't elaborated on it as carefully as you so far.

And as you say (which is my observation, too): Control a parameter straight on the Helix and everything's fine and dandy, parameters can be controlled patchwide (unless you explicetely set the parameter to be controlled by snapshots). Use a CC instead and things just don't work anymore. It's like "once there's white brackets around a parameter, snapshots will rule the world!" - regardless whether the brackets are a result of some CC mapping.

This might in fact not exactly be a bug, but maybe just something nobody thought of. Out of the Helix folks I know, exactly nobody's using a MIDI controller and CCs for these kinda things, so the strange things going along with it might as well have slipped the attention of the testing team because it's a setup only nerds like me would use.

 

I like to think of the Helix MIDI implementation as an ongoing project. Unfortunately, since the only MIDI nerds who seem to be interestedare you, me and some dude in Podunk, Idaho, L6 is not likely to be putting a lot of resources into it. 

 

If you put it on Ideascale, post a link here. I'll vote for it! Don't know about the Podunk dude, I think he has a metered Internet connection.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, phil_m said:

The one workaround maybe to assign the Level parameter to EXP3 (if you're not actually using EXP3 for anything else) and assign the associated CC (CC#3) to the MIDI controller knob/fader you want to use. If you do that and set the EXP3 Position parameter to Global or Per Preset, the saved value may be overridden, but I'm not completely sure about that.

 

Well, as rd2rk said, that limits the amount of available parameters for that workaround to 0 (EXP3 will be used from tomorrow on).

Fwiw, I know CCs aren't sending a continous data stream - but all it'd take to adress the problem would be to have an option to simply exclude parameters from snapshots. Just as it is with switches and just as it is when controlling any parameter onboard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fooled around a bit more, Helix first started to act strange, next it completely froze in, had to rebuild everything by a global 9/10 switch reset. Could've possibly tried the 11/12 reset, but as I had everything backed up, it's been no drama.

However, my personal bottomline so far would be: Stay away from anything CC-controlled for the time being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

Fooled around a bit more, Helix first started to act strange, next it completely froze in, had to rebuild everything by a global 9/10 switch reset. Could've possibly tried the 11/12 reset, but as I had everything backed up, it's been no drama.

However, my personal bottomline so far would be: Stay away from anything CC-controlled for the time being.

 

Were you using MIDI over USB? It can be quite easy to get a feedback loop when you start sending commands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, MIDI through USB. The App doesn't "understand" MIDI In, though, so it shouldn't exactly be an issue. Someone recommended to turn of MIDI Clock on the Helix (which is fine with me, don't need it for the time being) as it might be another problematic thing.
However, I will give this a last try and then possibly call it a day as the conflicts between snapshots and CCs don't allow me to utilize it the way I'd like anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If both the Helix and the BCR2000 are connected to the computer by USB, and the Helix and the BCR2000 are directly connected by standard MIDI cables, and MIDI THRU is on........starts to look like a London traffic circle!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I only connected the BCR through MIDI, no computer connection, seither.

But the freeze happened while using the tablet app.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

Well, I only connected the BCR through MIDI, no computer connection, seither.

But the freeze happened while using the tablet app.

 

You mean HX Edit on a Windows tablet, or...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

You mean HX Edit on a Windows tablet, or...?

 

No, a MIDI control app running on Android. I will post a video later on (in a new thread about another feature request...). Could be kickass but unfortunately, the snapshot conflicts seem to render it a no-go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I won't start a new thread just yet, here's kinda what I'm talking about:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

As I won't start a new thread just yet, here's kinda what I'm talking about:

 

 

That is way cool! You wrote that? I don't have any Androids, but that kind of app might make it worth getting one!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

That is way cool! You wrote that? I don't have any Androids, but that kind of app might make it worth getting one!

 

No, I have zero ideas about writing software. It's just a MIDI controller app. And there's way more of those for iOS. 

Anyway, doesn't matter much until Line6 takes care about some issues. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

No, I have zero ideas about writing software. It's just a MIDI controller app. And there's way more of those for iOS. 

Anyway, doesn't matter much until Line6 takes care about some issues. 

 

Or the app writers write error code to prevent the crashes. I won't hold my breath either way! Cool app though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Or the app writers write error code to prevent the crashes. I won't hold my breath either way! Cool app though.

 

Nah, it's defenitely got nothing to do with the app. All the thing is doing is to throw out MIDI CCs (I monitored it in Logic).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×