Helix LT with tube amp - 4C method - no delay/reverb

[sayid98]

Hi, connected the LT to Peavey 6505+ head using four cables. While the front end effects seem to be working, I don't get any backend effect like delay or reverb from the LT (it only adds hiss). On the LT, I have added fx loop 1 block and played with send/return levels without any luck. Is there any other system/global setting I have to tweak? Did you guys get delay/reverb through the effects loop of a tube head using helix?

 

Thanks.

[rd2rk]

Is it wired like this?

 

Guitar>Helix Input>(Helix Effects)>(FX Send 1 Block)>FX Send 1>Amp Input>Amp Send>FX Return 1>(Helix Effects)>L/Mono Out>Amp Return

 

Are you using shielded (instrument) cables in the FX Loop?

Is the Send/Return set to INST?

[Schmalle]

The Peavey 6505+ has a switchable FX loop.

[rd2rk]

2 minutes ago, Schmalle said:

The Peavey 6505+ has a switchable FX loop.

 

Just to clarify, from the manual:

 

7/8. EFFECTS SEND/EFFECTS RETURN
Signals are supplied to outboard effects or signal processing units by patching from the Effects Send (7)
output into the outboard unit(s) and back into the Effects Return (8) input using shielded cables with 1/4"
mono phone plugs. Only non-gain effects devices (chorus, reverb, delay, etc.) should be used in the effects
loop. If footswitch is used, “Effects” must be selected (LED illuminated) for effects to work.

 

That "Effects" switch is on the footswitch. AFAIK, if you're NOT using the PV footswitch, the FX Loop is always active, but bypassed if nothing is plugged into the loop.

[sayid98]

9 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Just to clarify, from the manual:

 

7/8. EFFECTS SEND/EFFECTS RETURN
Signals are supplied to outboard effects or signal processing units by patching from the Effects Send (7)
output into the outboard unit(s) and back into the Effects Return (8) input using shielded cables with 1/4"
mono phone plugs. Only non-gain effects devices (chorus, reverb, delay, etc.) should be used in the effects
loop. If footswitch is used, “Effects” must be selected (LED illuminated) for effects to work.

 

That "Effects" switch is on the footswitch. AFAIK, if you're NOT using the PV footswitch, the FX Loop is always active, but bypassed if nothing is plugged into the loop.

 

Thanks, Yes. I hooked up 6505+ the footswitch as well and pressed the effects switch on it. It adds an audible hiss when I do that (similar result if don't use the footswitch). I just bought the head new this week.

 

10 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Is it wired like this?

 

Guitar>Helix Input>(Helix Effects)>(FX Send 1 Block)>FX Send 1>Amp Input>Amp Send>FX Return 1>(Helix Effects)>L/Mono Out>Amp Return

 

Are you using shielded (instrument) cables in the FX Loop?

Is the Send/Return set to INST?

 

Yes - the wiring looks like that. I'm using 3' guitar cables.

 

Send/return1 is set to INST in global settings 

[rd2rk]

Is your LT on top of your head?

I can't picture how 3' cables would reach from the LT to the back of the PV if the Head is on a cab and the LT is on the floor.

With the PV footswitch disconnected, do you still get hiss?

There has to be a cabling problem, or something in the LT signal chain.

Attach a copy of the preset you're using.

 

[Schmalle]

What I'd do to set up a rig like yours:

- cabling according to 4CM

- set Input, Output and  Send/Return levels to Inst

- turn the volume knob (Helix) fully up

- go to / make an empty preset

- add FX Loop to the preset

- play and check if you hear the amp and it sounds normal (some added hiss is normal)

- check if volume stays the same when bypassing FX loop with Peavey foot controler

- add a Noise Gate (Dynamics FX) after the FX Loop block in the Helix and try to get rid of the hiss

 

[- bypass FX Loop block in the Helix, add the PV Panama Preamp block and match it with the amps Lead channel]

 

[sayid98]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:22 AM, rd2rk said:

Is your LT on top of your head?

I can't picture how 3' cables would reach from the LT to the back of the PV if the Head is on a cab and the LT is on the floor.

With the PV footswitch disconnected, do you still get hiss?

There has to be a cabling problem, or something in the LT signal chain.

Attach a copy of the preset you're using.

 

 

Yes - it's sitting right next to the head.

 

With the amp footswitch disconnected, I don't get the extra hiss. It seems like LT is trying to add something to the amp's loop, but it might be too weak resulting in louder hiss. Please find attached two images of the LT setup. Btw, power amp should probably receive line level signal? If so, maybe we have to set the helix LT FX send (going into amp input) to Inst and  FX return (coming back into the helix from the preamp out) & 1/4" output (going into power amp input) to line ? Unfortunately, there is no separate setting for FX send and return ..

[Schmalle]

Setting the output level to line level adds a significant boost that should be compensated best in the FX loop by lowering the return level, assuming Helix volume knob is cranked. Generally that would be a good idea if you use dynamic effects.

Again: check if volume stays the same when bypassing FX loop with Peavey foot controller, if it does levels are set correctly.

 

The hiss comes from the Helix before the amp input. It's a high gain amp so any noise will be highly amplified. If you plug your guitar into the amp instead of the Helix you'll notice it goes away.

 

Good news is there is the PV Panama preamp model which should sound nearly identical to the lead channel. Using this instead will get rid of the hiss.

[sayid98]

Yes, the volume level stays the same when the amp's FX loop is bypassed using the footswitch - so the levels are probably good with the current setup (everything set to inst on the helix). However, I'm not getting the delay/reverb effects from the helix.

[rd2rk]

If you take the Helix FX Loop OUT of the signal chain by plugging the guitar directly in to the amp input and simply patching the amp's SEND directly to it's RETURN, are you still getting sound? If not, the amp may have a defective FX Loop.

 

 

[sayid98]

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

If you take the Helix FX Loop OUT of the signal chain by plugging the guitar directly in to the amp input and simply patching the amp's SEND directly to it's RETURN, are you still getting sound? If not, the amp may have a defective FX Loop.

 

 

 

Yes, it works that way. At least that's a relief for me. Head makes sound with its loop patched (with or without the footswitch).

[sayid98]

Btw, from the 6505+ manual,

 

EFFECTS RETURN: Impedance: Very High Z, 470 k ohms Designed Level: -10 dBV, 300 mV RMS

EFFECTS SEND: Load Impedance: 47 k ohms or greater Nominal Output: -10 dBV, 300 mV RMS

 

Aren't these levels are line levels (but we're setting the helix return/out level to inst) ? Could that be the reason?

 

 

[Schmalle]

2 hours ago, sayid98 said:

Btw, from the 6505+ manual,

 

EFFECTS RETURN: Impedance: Very High Z, 470 k ohms Designed Level: -10 dBV, 300 mV RMS

EFFECTS SEND: Load Impedance: 47 k ohms or greater Nominal Output: -10 dBV, 300 mV RMS

 

Aren't these levels are line levels (but we're setting the helix return/out level to inst) ? Could that be the reason?

 

 

No.

[rd2rk]

11 hours ago, sayid98 said:

Btw, from the 6505+ manual,

 

EFFECTS RETURN: Impedance: Very High Z, 470 k ohms Designed Level: -10 dBV, 300 mV RMS

EFFECTS SEND: Load Impedance: 47 k ohms or greater Nominal Output: -10 dBV, 300 mV RMS

 

Aren't these levels are line levels (but we're setting the helix return/out level to inst) ? Could that be the reason?

 

 

 

To prove this, set SEND/RETURN 1 to INST and set SEND/RETURN 2 to LINE. Then instead of using a SEND/RETURN Block, use SEND 1 Block and RETURN 2 Block. Take the SEND from your amp to RETURN 2 on the LT. Then set the Output to LINE. You can try all of the possible combinations, but I doubt it will solve your problem.

 

FWIW - you still haven't done what I asked by attaching the preset itself. My Helix can't load your screenshot.

[sayid98]

3 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

To prove this, set SEND/RETURN 1 to INST and set SEND/RETURN 2 to LINE. Then instead of using a SEND/RETURN Block, use SEND 1 Block and RETURN 2 Block. Take the SEND from your amp to RETURN 2 on the LT. Then set the Output to LINE. You can try all of the possible combinations, but I doubt it will solve your problem.

 

FWIW - you still haven't done what I asked by attaching the preset itself. My Helix can't load your screenshot.

 

Ah - here is the preset. Do you happen to have the same head?

SAND RYTHM.hlx

[rd2rk]

Alas, if I had the same head, we'd already have the solution! ;-)

 

So, there's nothing weird about your preset. It works perfectly in the FX Loop of my Egnater. Adding a High Gain Helix amp and switching the FX Loop in and out works correctly too.

 

I know this will sound like "DUH!", but are you SURE that the cables are plugged in to the correct jacks on the LT? SEND 1 (to amp Input) and RETURN 1 (from amp Send)?

Just look to be SURE.

Are you SURE that the cables are good?

 

Here's some more thoughts.

 

You have a brand new PV head. Have you considered contacting PV support for help with this?

The fact that your hiss is happening when the PV footswitch is connected has to be a PV issue.

There's also the Peavey user forum:

https://forums.peavey.com/

 

I looked up the specs on my Eganater.

Send Impedance 600 ohms

Return Impedance 220 ohms

 

I have no idea how to relate that to your problem, but I have no such issues.

 

Can you get a stand alone reverb or delay stomp box to put in the PV loop?

Then try it in the LT loop (use headphones to test).

Do you know anyone with a simple amp with FX loop who will let you hook up your LT to test?

 

Just throwing stuff at the wall here, but short of having your rig in front of me (do you happen to live in Colorado?), I'm running out of ideas.

 

 

[sayid98]

On 10/1/2020 at 10:01 PM, rd2rk said:

Alas, if I had the same head, we'd already have the solution! ;-)

 

So, there's nothing weird about your preset. It works perfectly in the FX Loop of my Egnater. Adding a High Gain Helix amp and switching the FX Loop in and out works correctly too.

 

I know this will sound like "DUH!", but are you SURE that the cables are plugged in to the correct jacks on the LT? SEND 1 (to amp Input) and RETURN 1 (from amp Send)?

Just look to be SURE.

Are you SURE that the cables are good?

 

Here's some more thoughts.

 

You have a brand new PV head. Have you considered contacting PV support for help with this?

The fact that your hiss is happening when the PV footswitch is connected has to be a PV issue.

There's also the Peavey user forum:

https://forums.peavey.com/

 

I looked up the specs on my Eganater.

Send Impedance 600 ohms

Return Impedance 220 ohms

 

I have no idea how to relate that to your problem, but I have no such issues.

 

Can you get a stand alone reverb or delay stomp box to put in the PV loop?

Then try it in the LT loop (use headphones to test).

Do you know anyone with a simple amp with FX loop who will let you hook up your LT to test?

 

Just throwing stuff at the wall here, but short of having your rig in front of me (do you happen to live in Colorado?), I'm running out of ideas.

 

 

 

Sorry for the late response. I am in Austin, TX - quite a drive ;) Thanks for your help. I will post on Peavey forum too, but they all seem to be using dedicated pedals there :)

 

So just to clarify, the hiss comes only  when I engage LT in amp's loop using its footswitch. With the amps send/return patched, it's actually pretty quiet. I do have an EB 25K volume pedal sitting around. I added it to amp's loop and it actually worked well as a volume control. So I think amp's loop is functional. One other thing to notice is that your amp's impedance levels are quite different than mine's (600/200 ohm vs 47k/470k ohm). I don't know the spec for LT's loop - is it listed somewhere? I also ordered a delay & reverb pedal and will update later on. Meantime, is it also possible to use the LT using two cables just  to get delay or reverb? Would that be okay to connect the amp's loop send to LT's guitar in and LT's mono out back to the amp's return? I do have an X3 live, so maybe I could use that for the frontend effects and the LT for delay/reverb.

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, sayid98 said:

Meantime, is it also possible to use the LT using two cables just  to get delay or reverb? Would that be okay to connect the amp's loop send to LT's guitar in and LT's mono out back to the amp's return?

 

If you're going to do that, connect the amp's send to the Helix Return, set the preset's input to the Return, then you can connect the output to the amp's return.

[sayid98]

Quick update. Bought delay and reverb pedals. They worked flawlessly in amp's effects loop - plug and play. Just couldn't get helix lt to do the delay or reverb! I guess this 4C method is pretty iffy and does not play nice with all heads.