A Tinkerer's Amp Model

[hideout]

This last edition of Line 6"s New Model Citizen blog further reinforces my belief that they really should create an amp model that allows us to configure with our own choices for the virtual preamp and power tubes. And yes, having separate preamp and power amp models would be even better.

 

https://blog.line6.com/2021/10/14/dave-hunter-output-tube-types-setting-the-foundation-of-your-tone/?utm_source=Marketo&utm_medium=BlogEmail&utm_campaign=Blog_DaveHunter&mkt_tok=MTI2LUxCTi00MjgAAAGAR7c_NpoYaxlpN3mfETro_p1lX_d88NtNKHiQbh1QeL5_DHT9f95RkDsZo5xBTXVcMwhbBPxI4zpaPcluyzXBYGCamF6zzE_p58_XhS4JX7c

[SaschaFranck]

26 minutes ago, hideout said:

This last edition of Line 6"s New Model Citizen blog further reinforces my belief that they really should create an amp model that allows us to configure with our own choices for the virtual preamp and power tubes.

 

I would even take that a bit further. Even without going *too* much into whatever details (such as in Fractal or Bias land), I'd like to see some sort of "playground" amp model.

What it could/should feature:

- Independent pre- and poweramps.

- Choice between various basic drive characteristics.

- Pre- and post tone stack (that alone would make up for a whole new world of a difference), maybe even some inbetween tone stack options (such as on some Boogies).

- Multiple drive stages (ok, we already have these on some ampe), so you could place a tone stack inbetween.

 

In addition, all that would work a lot better with these options:

- Customizable tone stacks (as in a parametric EQ).

- A "consolidated" tone stack allowing you to not always see all parameters exposed.

- Input level as a modifier, at least for all the amp internals (I wish there would be all sorts of modifiers all throughout the Helix, but I doubt we'll ever see that, which is as well a certain part of the reason why I will likely switch to something else).

 

Especially the latter can do *soo* much in terms of dynamic interaction. Once you fool around with, say, Guitar Rig, you'll know how far input levels used as modifiers can take you. You can turn even the most stiff feeling amp into a dynamic monster within seconds. Now route input level to both drive and, say, a mid control (and maybe add some inversed modulation for the treble control) - and *whoosh* there's your amp which will clean up super nicely when turning down your guitar volume, regardless of the guitar used.

 

Anyway, a custom amp would be quite some fun.

[SaschaFranck]

And fwiw, just having independent power amps would be quite welcomed already. I have a Soldano SP77 preamp that sounds quite gorgeous through the power amp sim of my Amplifirebox. Can't use it as nicely with the Helix.

[hideout]

A post boost, essentially a boost after the preamp but before the power section, would be very useful, at least to me it would. I'd like to be able to drive the "power section" harder while keeping the preamp clean so as to get mostly power tube saturation.

[Schmalle]

1 hour ago, hideout said:

A post boost, essentially a boost after the preamp but before the power section, would be very useful, at least to me it would. I'd like to be able to drive the "power section" harder while keeping the preamp clean so as to get mostly power tube saturation.

You just described master volume which is integrated in all models already.

[hideout]

38 minutes ago, Schmalle said:

You just described master volume which is integrated in all models already.

Uhh, no. You don't understand how a master volume works. A master volume merely controls the amount of signal going to the power section by reducing it.  After it's on full, that's it. No more signal can be sent that is more than the preamp is already putting out because the master volume is not capable of boosting a signal.  However, since we're in a virtual scenario here, if the preamp and power amp were separate blocks, you could put a clean boost between the preamp and power amp, keep the preamp clean, crank the master volume and boost the preamp's output to the power section. This would induce power tube saturation without the added preamp saturation.  Of course, while this is certainly doable with a real tube amp that has an effects loop, it would be ridiculously loud.

[SaschaFranck]

22 minutes ago, Schmalle said:

You just described master volume which is integrated in all models already.

 

Well, not really. There's a pretty noticeable difference between cranking a master volume and boosting the input stage of a power amp.

 

However, while I possibly wouldn't need dedicated power amps to feed them with super hot levels, I'd defenitely love to see them for basically two reasons:

- To fool around with different pre- and poweramp combinations (which makes quite a difference).

- To insert some FX between the two. The poweramp in this case might kind of "gel" things together or add some "bloom" - which I think could be pretty desirable effects.

[hideout]

13 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

- To insert some FX between the two. The poweramp in this case might kind of "gel" things together or add some "bloom" - which I think could be pretty desirable effects.

This is especially important with a spring reverb effect since in the real world, that reverb tank is in fact between the preamp and the power amp. Also, when you connect effects to a real tube amp's effects loop, they too are between the preamp and the power amp.

[SaschaFranck]

34 minutes ago, hideout said:

Also, when you connect effects to a real tube amp's effects loop, they too are between the preamp and the power amp.

 

Sure. For most of whatever "normal" or "utility" FX it might not make too much of a difference, but once you have an option to somewhat "dirty" up, say, a modulation effect, it might be quite worth the effort. I actually often like modulation FX to sit in front of a driven amp, but quite sometimes it's too much warble. In front of a driven/cranked power amp, it might however become just what the doctor ordered.

[Schmalle]

31 minutes ago, hideout said:

Uhh, no. You don't understand how a master volume works. A master volume merely controls the amount of signal going to the power section by reducing it.  After it's on full, that's it. No more signal can be sent that is more than the preamp is already putting out because the master volume is not capable of boosting a signal.  However, since we're in a virtual scenario here, if the preamp and power amp were separate blocks, you could put a clean boost between the preamp and power amp, keep the preamp clean, crank the master volume and boost the preamp's output to the power section. This would induce power tube saturation without the added preamp saturation.  Of course, while this is certainly doable with a real tube amp that has an effects loop, it would be ridiculously loud.

I just didn't pay too much attention to the word 'boost'. And I didn't need a lecture on things I already know.

Also the no preamp but power amp saturation thing is doable in a lot of models - how do you think i.e. a Vox works?

[SaschaFranck]

5 minutes ago, Schmalle said:

Also the no preamp but power amp saturation thing is doable in a lot of models - how do you think i.e. a Vox works?

 

It's still a big difference between that and being able to insert whatever unit between pre- and power amp.

[Schmalle]

57 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

Well, not really. There's a pretty noticeable difference between cranking a master volume and boosting the input stage of a power amp.

You're right - it depends in where the master is placed i.e.:

In my Laney AOR i.e. the  master volume is before the FX loop. SO it wouldn't sound different.

On a SLO however the FX loop is before the tone stack followed by the master volume - plugging a preamp in the FX return and boost it would sound significantly different then boosting with master.

Also with a late master volume ( post PI) is different from pre PI master.

[Schmalle]

21 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

It's still a big difference between that and being able to insert whatever unit between pre- and power amp.

Very true. And another rabbit hole - a tempting and fun one though.

[hideout]

33 minutes ago, Schmalle said:

I just didn't pay too much attention to the word 'boost'. And I didn't need a lecture on things I already know.

Also the no preamp but power amp saturation thing is doable in a lot of models - how do you think i.e. a Vox works?

Then perhaps you should have read the post more carefully.  As for the Vox model, I'm pretty sure that it does in fact include preamp saturation in the signal sent to the power section so no, it's not currently doable.  Besides all that, none of the amp models give me the kind of control I'm looking for.

[SaschaFranck]

2 hours ago, Schmalle said:

Very true. And another rabbit hole - a tempting and fun one though.

 

Well, I'd rather think of it as a useful addon to finetune certain things. Just as I was swapping the stock 6L6s in my MkIV in favour of EL34s (to end up with a mix of both, which was possible as well). And maybe to just slap FX between pre- and poweramp for that little gritty extra.

For my personal use case it'd likely be perfectly fine if they offered like 3-4 of the most common power amp designs, mainly to use different sorts of PA tubes. I'd rather not like to fool around with swapping individual tubes and such - that'd be quite a rabbit hole indeed.

[hideout]

On 10/22/2021 at 4:14 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 And maybe to just slap FX between pre- and poweramp for that little gritty extra.

Yeah, I'm all over this. It'd be cool to insert an eq and a compressor there.

[hideout]

Actually, I'd posted this very idea on IdeaScale

[SaschaFranck]

Upvoted.

[CraigGT]

Actually I built my own for real, much more fun :-)

 

[hideout]

18 hours ago, CraigGT said:

Actually I built my own for real, much more fun :-)

 

While I applaud your efforts in doing so, where's the effects loop? I bet you can't swap or mix and match tubes... and you have to wait for them to cool down. You can't instantly change the topology like in what I'm proposing and you are bound to the real world limits of a tube amp unlike the virtual world.  Rosin fumes ick. I don't think that's anywhere near as much fun.

[CraigGT]

23 hours ago, hideout said:

While I applaud your efforts in doing so, where's the effects loop? I bet you can't swap or mix and match tubes... and you have to wait for them to cool down. You can't instantly change the topology like in what I'm proposing and you are bound to the real world limits of a tube amp unlike the virtual world.  Rosin fumes ick. I don't think that's anywhere near as much fun.

 

Well there's no need for an effects loop with an amp that's designed to overdrive the power amp only and I've been soldering all my life so a few more fumes won't hurt me.

But no you can't just change tube types because it's far more complicated than just plugging different tubes into the sockets.

 

I just fancied building the amp that I wanted and it's turned out great, I don't want to buy a Toneking Imperial II now and I might even sell my Boogie Fillmore!

 

Craig