Where to place Amp models or Amp Preamp in Chain

[adagosto]

Can someone help me understand where amp models and amp preamps are supposed to be placed in the signal chain?

 

But first, few things....

I'm using the 4CM. My FX Loop L when active enables my amp preamp to work (Mesa Boogie Express) and the FX Loop R, when active enables my external delay pedal.

 

The way I typically set up my chain is like this:

Block 1: Compressor, Block 2: 10-band EQ, block 3: Amp model, Block 4: FX Loop L, Block 5: Modulation, Block 6: FX Loop R, Block 7: Reverb. I'll also stick a Noise Gate block in there and move it around until I find 'a quiet place'.

 

So my question is, where should I place my Amp block? Where should the FX Loop L/R blocks go? I've noticed that if I move the Amp block around to either side of each of the FX Blocks, it really doesn't change the tone. If I turn off the L FX Block, it will make most amp models a bit brighter sounding, but only by a little.

 

Also, the "Preamp amp" blocks don't seem to sound good anywhere I put them. The manual says on page 34 under the preamp section, "...recommended when feeding the HX Stomp XL pedal into the power amp section of your favorite amplifier." Where exactly should I be feeding it?? They all sound thin and lifeless. They also lack low end. It doesn't matter where I put them either.

 

Any guidance here would be great!!

 

Just a note here. This sound really good how I have things, but I question if it's optimized and that I'm getting the best possible tone from the Helix into and thru my amp.

[rd2rk]

25 minutes ago, adagosto said:

The way I typically set up my chain is like this:

Block 1: Compressor, Block 2: 10-band EQ, block 3: Amp model, Block 4: FX Loop L, Block 5: Modulation, Block 6: FX Loop R, Block 7: Reverb.

 

You don't need to use separate Send and Return Blocks unless you WANT to cut out the FX between them when the loop is active.

For 4cm just use an FX Loop Block and put that MOD effect on whatever side of the Amp sounds best.

 

The separate Send Blocks are intended to take a signal OUT from a specific point in the signal chain to an external amp/processor from which it will not be returning to the signal chain, or not returning to the same point in the chain. The separate RETURN Blocks are intended to bring an external audio source INTO the signal chain or return the signal from a previously used SEND Block to a different point in the chain than where it was sent from. Very specific use cases. For 4cm just use an FX Loop Block.

 

It doesn't matter which side of the Amp you put the FX Loop Block on UNLESS you're using a Preamp as an AIAB effect and WANT it in front of your physical amp, in which case put it before the FX Loop Block.

 

40 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Also, the "Preamp amp" blocks don't seem to sound good anywhere I put them. The manual says on page 34 under the preamp section, "...recommended when feeding the HX Stomp XL pedal into the power amp section of your favorite amplifier." Where exactly should I be feeding it?? They all sound thin and lifeless. They also lack low end. It doesn't matter where I put them either.

 

I find that if I'm using a physical amp that doesn't have a whole lot of low end and is naturally scooped (Fender style amps, my Egnater Tweaker) or I'm using a SS Class D amp (my Powercab 212+ or a pedalboard type amp), using the full amp models usually sounds better.

 

Again, if you're using a Helix preamp as an AIAB as described above, that's another thing. Different use case. I haven't had much luck with that, but I haven't spent much time with it, and some people like it. A YMMV thing.

 

Low gain preamps that are modeling amps that are similar to your amp can sound fine. For example, my Tweaker is a 3-12ax7/2-6v6 amp. It sounds fine with the Helix Fender preamps and using those allows me to turn my single channel Tweaker into a multi channel amp. I've gotten good results using the Marshall tone stack on the Tweaker for Marshally cleans (4cm), the US DeluxeBrt preamp for Fendery cleans and the Voltage Queen preamp for crunch (both into the FX Return).

 

By the same token, running a High Gain Helix Preamp into the FX Return of a 5150 or a JCM800 might be a whole 'nother story.

 

Hope I've answered all of your questions.

 

 

 

[adagosto]

Rd2rk,

Yeah I think so...

If I understand you correctly, it really doesn't matter where I place my FX Loop L/R blocks and it doesn't really matter where I place the amp blocks either. The trick is to simplify move them around and find where it sounds the best. No hard rules, just use your ears. ???

 

As for preamp models, again just try it and use your ears to find the best location and type for your particular rig.

 

Is that right?

 

[rd2rk]

No, you don't understand me.

 

I was VERY specific about where to place things.

I'll try to be even more specific.

 

When using 4cm your FX LOOP Block (singular) goes between the FX you want to come BEFORE your PHYSICAL amp's preamp (such as OD/Dist) and those FX that you want to be AFTER your PHYSICAL amp's preamp (such as Delays/Reverbs).

 

Is it a hard and fast rule WHICH TYPE of FX go where? No, put them where they sound best.

It IS a hard and fast rule where you put the FX LOOP Block - between the BEFORE FX and the AFTER FX.

The FX SEND and FX RETURN Blocks (plural) are used for SPECIFIC purposes, and those are NOT the purposes you are currently using them for.

You don't understand their purpose, so do yourself a favor - don't use them until you do (explained in my previous post)!

 

When switching between your PHYSICAL preamp (in the FX LOOP) and a HELIX amp/preamp it doesn't matter which side of the FX LOOP Block (singular) you put the HELIX amp on, since one will be ON when the other is OFF. The signal flows either through the FX LOOP, through the PHYSICAL PREAMP and past the inactive HELIX amp, or through the active HELIX amp and past the inactive FX LOOP (which contains the PHYSICAL PREAMP). Reversing the order of those blocks does not change their function or effect on the signal.

 

IOW -

Input>FX>FX LOOP BLOCK>HELIX AMP>FX>Output to PHYSICAL POWER AMP

works in exactly the same way as 

Input>FX>HELIX AMP>FX LOOP BLOCK>FX>Output to PHYSICAL POWER AMP

because one (HELIX amp/FX LOOP) is ON when the other is OFF.

 

You can use a HELIX PREAMP to replace the PHYSICAL PREAMP when running the signal through the PHYSICAL POWER AMP. Sometimes it sounds better to use a FULL HELIX AMP (preamp+power amp sim) even though the manual SUGGESTS the opposite. When using tube amps, HELIX preamps might sound best when used with the type of power amps they were matched with ITRW. For example, US Deluxe HELIX preamp into a 6v6 power amp; 2204 HELIX preamp into an EL34 power amp; US Double or Rectifier HELIX preamp into a 6L6 power amp; A30 or Matchstick HELIX preamp into EL84 power amp.

 

This does not mean that you can't play mix and match, but if it sounds like crap, this might explain why.

 

You can also use a HELIX preamp as an effect (AIAB) by placing it BEFORE the FX LOOP Block and/or HELIX FULL AMP.

 

I hope this clarifies things.

[adagosto]

Rd2rk,

I kinda disagree that I don't understand you. In my previous post I was ONLY talking about where to place an Amp block as in, before or after the FX Loop L or R blocks. 

 

I never spoke about other effects which you have now included here. And I do agree with you that the placement is important.

 

In trying different locations of Amp blocks, I've found that some sound better before the FX Loop L Block while others sound better after. It's kinda unpredictable, so I just move it around and where it sounds good I leave it. Same is true for the Noise Gate block. Sometimes it goes in front of the amp block and sometimes after.

 

As for effects placement like ODs and delay, that's a much easier affair.

 

 

[rd2rk]

36 minutes ago, adagosto said:

In trying different locations of Amp blocks, I've found that some sound better before the FX Loop L Block while others sound better after. It's kinda unpredictable, so I just move it around and where it sounds good I leave it.

 

Please indulge me.

I've attached a simple proof. Is there a difference? Not that I can hear.

Using a CLEAN setting on your physical amp, swap out the Helix amps until you find one where you hear a difference. 

Put it in both presets, then save and attach the presets to your reply.

If I'm wrong you'll have taught me something, of which I'll be very appreciative.

 

Amp After Loop.hlx Amp Before Loop.hlx

[adagosto]

Ok I wish I knew you name other than Rd2rk. Anyway...

 

Just for clarification I looked at your two presets and the "Amp After Loop" uses a "SEND L" block while the "Amp Before Loop" uses a "FX Loop L".

 

So first off, I want to clarify with you was that on purpose or should they both be FX Loop L blocks? I think the later of the two in which case I can adjust that.

[pianoguyy]

Where to put an amp (or effect) - wherever it sounds best to you. 

There are no rules, there are only some guidelines based on 'we tried this and it worked, so try this' . 

 

But the other way to look at this - just because it is a virtual amp/effect, doesn't make it any different than a physical amp/effect. 

Where would you put an amp or effect 'in the real world'. Well, that is where you put them on the computer screen. 

[rd2rk]

6 hours ago, adagosto said:

Ok I wish I knew you name other than Rd2rk. Anyway...

 

Just for clarification I looked at your two presets and the "Amp After Loop" uses a "SEND L" block while the "Amp Before Loop" uses a "FX Loop L".

 

So first off, I want to clarify with you was that on purpose or should they both be FX Loop L blocks? I think the later of the two in which case I can adjust that.

 

Good catch! I threw those together on my way out the door. OOPS! Yes, both should be FX Loop L.

[adagosto]

Ok that's what I thought...

After testing it, here's my summary.

On cleanish amps, the amp block can be placed on either side (right or left) of the FX Loop L block and both locations sound good. But, when I try this with higher gain amps, the amp block clearly sounds better in front of the FX Loop L block (so before location).

 

I tried this on the WhoWatt 100, US Princess, Matcheless and the BritPlexi. 

 

Again, this question started and remains all about "Amp Model" location. This has nothing to do with effects like OD's distortion and delays....only the Amp block location relative to the FX Loop L block.

[rd2rk]

Are you trying this with BOTH the FX Loop and Helix Amp ON?

That's the ONLY way I hear ANY difference with ANY Helix amp.

Since that is NOT the correct way to use 4cm that's to be expected.

 

HOWEVER - If you're convinced that there's a difference, then you've either discovered a bug that I just can't hear OR your HXS is defective.

Report it to L6 support and see what they say.

[adagosto]

27 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

Are you trying this with BOTH the FX Loop and Helix Amp ON?

That's the ONLY way I hear ANY difference with ANY Helix amp.

Since that is NOT the correct way to use 4cm that's to be expected.

 

Yes both blocks are on during the test.

 

Yes there is a different when moving the amp block left or right of the FX Loop L block, but only noticable on higher gain type amp models.

 

I'm curious, what would you expect me to hear?

 

And why do you say that this is not the proper way to use the 4CM? It's my understanding that some amp models will sound better routed into you physical amp's preamp and others might sound better into the power amp section.

 

But then again, in the strictest definition of the 4CM, the design intent probably never was to introduce using amp models and the intent was to just use your own amp for tone but allow effects models to be place where you want them.

 

In my case, I'm doing exactly that AND using physical effects pedals AND using models. I pretty much only use the AC30 and the Brit Plexi these days. Otherwise I'm getting my tone from the Origin Effects Revival Drive, a Joyo AC Tone pedal and a TC Spark. I'm down to only using one delay pedal for post effects.

 

So I'm really curious what you would expect I'd hear given your test.

 

Maybe I should upload an audio clip. Would that help you??

 

[rd2rk]

With both blocks ON:

 

Amp BEFORE = Helix amp driving Physical amp.

 

Amp AFTER = Physical amp driving Helix amp.

 

Well, yeah, there's gonna be a difference!

 

Proper 4cm usage as I was describing and as it's usually done = EITHER Helix amp OR Physical amp.

 

Of course, you can do whatever sounds good to you, just know what it is that you're doing!

[adagosto]

Ok good, but which way would YOU expect things to be correct and sound the best?

 

Amp model BEFORE the FX Loop L block??

 

I'm just curious to know what you think based on your experience.

 

Many thanks!

Adam

[rd2rk]

22 minutes ago, adagosto said:

And why do you say that this is not the proper way to use the 4CM? It's my understanding that some amp models will sound better routed into you physical amp's preamp and others might sound better into the power amp section.

 

And here it's apples and oranges. A Helix PREAMP can be used in front of either a Helix amp OR a Physical PRE-amp. In which case it's being used as an AIAB. However, I NEVER suggested putting a FULL Helix amp model into a Physical preamp. But, as I said above if you like that sound, go for it.

 

Some Helix preamps just don't sound good into a poweramp, whereas their FULL amp versions just sound better, and I've already explained why that MIGHT be the case. This is subjective to be sure, do what sounds best. I wasn't declaring a rule, just stating an opinion.

 

 

[rd2rk]

10 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Ok good, but which way would YOU expect things to be correct and sound the best?

 

Amp model BEFORE the FX Loop L block??

 

I'm just curious to know what you think based on your experience.

 

Many thanks!

Adam

 

I would never do it with both the FX Loop Block AND the Helix amp ON.

With either/or ON (normal usage of 4cm) there's no difference.

By putting a Helix Preamp BEFORE the FX Loop, with the FX Loop AND Helix Preamp ON you're using the Helix preamp as an AIAB, driving the PHYSICAL PREAMP.

Then, with the FX Loop OFF, it would simply be the Helix preamp into the PHYSICAL POWERAMP.

Two completely different uses of the Helix Preamp.