HX Stomp MIDI send to Blackstar Live Logic

[aldomontoya]

I have an HX Stomp controlled via midi with the Blackstar Live Logic Controller that I use where I don't have quite the space for my Floor.

 

99% happy - but if I assign a footswitch on the controller to an effect (Operation set to Toggle so that the LED stays lit when I hit the button) - and that effect is ON when the snapshot/preset is selected, the light is OFF. I then need to hit the switch twice to get the effect OFF again.

 

Anything I can do via config or MIDI send to the controller?

 

Thanks kindly.

[rd2rk]

I think I answered this elsewhere, but same answer here. Your controller SENDS MIDI, but it does not RECEIVE MIDI.

[PierM]

HX Stomp, as any other Helix device, DOES NOT generate blocks/footswitches MIDI status (it only has its own reserved FS CCs), so isn't sending anything about the ON/OFF situation when you load a preset, nor when you change bypass directly on the HX Stomp. No MIDI is being sent about that status change. It's just a passive control, as it happens with 99% of multiFX pedals, controlled by non proprietary controllers. 

 

Even if you'd connect the MIDI OUT from HX Stomp to the Live controller, you won't get any information about that aspect. If you just entered a preset, with blocks ON, you won't get that status loaded on your midi controller.

 

Same if you have a HX block and its relative switch on the controller ON, and then you turn that block off within the HX Stomp, you won't receive anything on the MIDI controller.

 

This means you always need to manually put the two device in "sync" as for the ON/OFF status of each block/FS you are remoting from that controller, and once you are good, only use the MIDI controller to keep the LEDs on the controller matching the status on the stomp.

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

On 10/27/2022 at 7:22 AM, PierM said:

HX Stomp, as any other Helix device, DOES NOT generate blocks/footswitches MIDI status (it only has its own reserved FS CCs), so isn't sending anything about the ON/OFF situation when you load a preset, nor when you change bypass directly on the HX Stomp. No MIDI is being sent about that status change. It's just a passive control, as it happens with 99% of multiFX pedals, controlled by non proprietary controllers. 

 

Yes and no. While HX devices do not AUTOMATICALLY send a MIDI message re stomp on/off status, if you assign a toggling MIDI CC to a stomp in ControlCenter, that message will be sent on preset load. I use this method all the time with VSTs. The problem with the Live Logic controller is that it does not RECEIVE MIDI, so this method cannot work. The MIDI IN on the LL is only there to provide daisy chain capability.

[PierM]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:34 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Yes and no. While HX devices do not AUTOMATICALLY send a MIDI message re stomp on/off status, if you assign a toggling MIDI CC to a stomp in ControlCenter, that message will be sent on preset load. I use this method all the time with VSTs. The problem with the Live Logic controller is that it does not RECEIVE MIDI, so this method cannot work. The MIDI IN on the LL is only there to provide daisy chain capability.

 

I didnt say you cant send CCs from Stomp, so it's pointless.

 

HX and Helix, arent sending bypass status, period.

[rd2rk]

On 10/27/2022 at 10:44 AM, PierM said:

 

I didnt say you cant send CCs from Stomp, so it's pointless.

 

HX and Helix, isnt sending bypass status, period.

 

They're not sending "bypass status" automatically by default, but they can be configured to do so using MIDI

It's only pointless because the LL doesn't receive MIDI.

Are we talking about different things?

[PierM]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:49 PM, rd2rk said:

 

They're not sending "bypass status" automatically by default, but they can be configured to do so using MIDI

It's only pointless because the LL doesn't receive MIDI.

Are we talking about different things?

 

The OP is asking why leds on the controller arent in sync with leds on Stomp. So when he browse the presets, nothing happens on the controller side.

 

Why that? Because Helix isnt using midi to communicate those bypass status to the external world, and even if you had a controller listening for CCs, to pre-set switches to either 127 or 0, you wont get any led switch sync while browsing presets, because nothing is being sent. They would still be all 0, waiting for first press.

 

You are talking about commands, that's a different scenario, and here it's stomp being the controller.

 

It cant be a valid answer, as sounds like Helix is sending bypass status via midi, but its controller cant receive it, which isnt true. 

 

[PierM]

Just to avoid confusion, I just meant that (NO MIDI BEING SENT ON BYPASS STATUS):

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dblw6sqspkhy2fn/IMG_8137.MOV?dl=0

[rd2rk]

Are you saying that the LL RECEIVES MIDI? if so, where did you get that info? It's not in the LL Manual.

 

As I understand the OP, he wants the LL to send a PC on a switch configured to do so (or when scrolling), and the LL to reflect the ON/OFF status of the HXS switches in the selected preset.

 

If I were using my FCB1010/UNO to control the HXS I could configure the FCB Preset to send a PC# to select the HXS preset and also at the same time send CC#s/Values to set or match the Stomp switches on the HXS. Like the LL the FCB cannot receive MIDI. The LEDs on the FCB would reflect the status of the HXS footswitches not because the HXS is sending it messages, but because that is handled internally on the FCB by the UNO chip. The LL, AFAICT, does not have this ability.

[rd2rk]

Just watched your movie. We're saying the same thing, but if you assign (in CommandCenter) a CC to the HXS FS, it would send that CC, but the LL would not receive it because it can't receive MIDI.

[PierM]

On 10/27/2022 at 7:47 PM, rd2rk said:

Are you saying that the LL RECEIVES MIDI? if so, where did you get that info? It's not in the LL Manual.

 

 

Of course it does. But cant receive anything from stomp, since stomp does not produce bypass midi.

 

Just did another video for you, ipad simulating HX stomp sending midi bypass back to LL.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/85hf425qmfq8rer/IMG_8138.MOV?dl=0

[rd2rk]

On 10/27/2022 at 11:59 AM, PierM said:

 

Of course it does. But cant receive anything from stomp, since stomp does not produce bypass midi.

 

Just did another video for you, ipad simulating HX stomp sending midi bypass back to LL.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/85hf425qmfq8rer/IMG_8138.MOV?dl=0

 

Where in the manual is the ability to receive MIDI documented, I didn't see it. Maybe there's a different manual from the one I have? I only saw the one manual on the Blackstar site.

 

What CC and Value are you using to toggle the switch on the LL?

 

In CommandCenter, assign that same CC/Value to a Bypass switch on the HXS. When you press that switch to Bypass the effect it will also send that CC/Value to the LL. Again, I do this all the time with VSTs.

[PierM]

You can use whatever CC you want, doesnt matter. LL will listen at the Midi Channel for the assigned CC. And this is per switch.

 

LL receive CCs, Notes, Tempo/Clock, and can also receive and pass thru the incoming.

 

Your suggestion isnt a solution, as LL doesnt offer multiple presets that you can manually program with Stomp, so the best option is to set LL to call for HX Stomp FS CCs, but again, it will not send ON/OFF status back to LL.

 

And even if you had multiple presets on LL, you couldnt get the LL receiving all led/FS status at preset load.

 

 

[rd2rk]

On 10/27/2022 at 12:23 PM, PierM said:

You can use whatever CC you want, doesnt matter. LL will listen at the Midi Channel for the assigned CC. And this is per switch.

 

LL receive CCs, Tempo/Clock, and can also receive and pass thru the incoming.

 

Your suggestion isnt a solution, as LL doesnt offer mulyiple presets, so the best option is to set LL to call for HX Stomp FS CCs, but again, it will not send ON/OFF status back to LL.

 

And even if you had multiple presets on LL, you couldnt get the LL receiving all led/FS status at preset load.

 

 

 

The LL sends a PC# to the HXS to select a preset on the HXS, yes?

If so, when the HXS loads the preset the HXS can send the LL a CC to activate the switch on the LL.

It needs to be a Toggling CC to be sent on preset load and will send the value (0/127) depending upon whether the HXS FS/effect is saved ON or OFF.

[PierM]

no, you either set LL to be a PC controller or a CC/Note controller, called custom mode.

 

Btw, I pass, we are just confusing the OP, and I have already answered.  Seems to me you dont know the Live Logic, but you keep trying to win the argument you started, being wrong. :)

[rd2rk]

I don't care about winning. As you well know, I'm all about helping. I didn't even know we were competing.

 

In this case I want to understand what's going on with this controller, and apparently the manual sucks. No way I'm going to buy an LL to figure this out, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one if it was worth buying. That's why I'm asking you, because you seem to be better versed in the use of this device than the authors of the manual. I have MANY MIDI controllers, and this is not the only forum in which I answer questions concerning using MIDI with various devices, plugins and controllers. It's kind of a hobby.

 

It's obvious that we speak different languages, and that always makes communication difficult.

If you're too busy to continue the discussion, fine, but don't use the OP being confused as an excuse. I don't hear the OP complaining.

 

[sctwoodworks]

I think it was me you were talking with over on TGP... Exact same situation but I'm not the OP here. 

 

The LL will in fact respond to CC's sent from the HXS. I swapped a couple settings as you suggested over on TGP (on the HXS side) and it has helped but I'm still sorting out exact details. (It worked backwards from what I was intending so I just need to flip something somewhere, lol). 

 

I will report back here and TGP when I figure things out. 

[sctwoodworks]

Ok. Assuming you are running the HXS in "Preset" mode you can have the HXS turn off switches on the LL that were left on when you change presets up/down. However, what I'm experiencing is that when HXS turns OFF the LL "lights" you need to stomp the LL switch TWICE to turn the effect ON again after returning to the prior preset on HXS. So, that basically puts you in the same situation as before although it is backwards.

 

I'm using the LL to send 6 CC's, toggle mode + an FS-7 in the expression jacks to send a total of 8 CC's to the HXS. Those 8 CC's turn on/off various effects or swap parameters I've assigned to CC's. I see the merit in having the HXS send info back to the controller to give you a clean slate on preset change but I'm not sure the HXS can fully get you back to start. There are the 6 "instant" commands plus what you can assign to the physical switch, in my case that leaves me short by 1 CC...   

 

I think to do this correctly you would need a midi controller capable of sending PC's + CC's that can store status of each button within the controller itself (as was suggested by RD2RK over on TGP, I think)...  

 

No doubt the HXS and command center is a powerful tool.... I just don't think the intention there is what we are trying to accomplish here. 

 

I'm just a "hobby" guy too so if I'm missing something or this helps trigger possibilities I'm all ears! 

 

 

[rd2rk]

Keeping in mind that I don't actually have an LL to test with, and the manual doesn't say anything (that I saw) about how the LL behaves when it receives MIDI -

 

Explaining this will be harder than actually configuring it.

 

I assume that you are changing the HXS Preset from the HXS in Preset mode.

 

When an HXS FS is assigned to send a Toggling CC (with default DIM/LIT settings of 0/127), if it is saved OFF it knows to send 127 when pressed. If saved ON it knows to send 0 when pressed.

 

First, we need to establish that the LL FS works the same way as the HXS FS.

 

Set the LL FS1 to be a Toggling FS which RESPONDS on CC#1 and SENDS CC#49 when pressed.

Set the HXS FS1 to send a Toggling CC on CC#1 with a Value of 0.

Create a Preset with a simple Gain Block assigned to FS1 and save it with the Gain Block Bypassed (OFF, FS1 DIM).

When you load the Preset CC#1 will be sent with a Value of 0 which should turn OFF the LL FS1.

What we're testing for is if when the LL FS is turned OFF by the message from the HXS, does it send Its CC#49 message? What Value does it send?

Assuming that it either sends nothing or CC#49 with Value of 0, FS1 on the HXS should remain OFF and its assigned Gain block should remain Bypassed.

Now press LL FS1. if it lights up and sends CC#49 with a Value of 127 we're in business. The HXS FS1 should light up and turn the Gain Block ON.

The LEDs on the two devices will be in sync and pressing the LL FS1 repeatedly should toggle the HXS FS1 and its Gain Block as expected.

 

In case that's not clear I've attached an example preset to show how the HXS Preset is configured.

 

I'm flying to Michigan tomorrow for a family thing so I won't be able to get back to you on this until Monday.

 

Hope it works!

 

 

 

sctwoodworks.hlx

[PierM]

On 10/28/2022 at 5:00 AM, sctwoodworks said:

 However, what I'm experiencing is that when HXS turns OFF the LL "lights" you need to stomp the LL switch TWICE to turn the effect ON again after returning to the prior preset on HXS.

 

That's because LL it's doing hardware toggling, (it's not a VST), so if you alternate ON/OFF commands between HX and LL, within the same cycle, the LL will return in its initial electrical status (0 listening). It can be hard to understand, but I will try;

 

This is an hypothetic cycle, and to keep that working - ONCE YOU SENT INITIAL BLOCK STATUS TO LL SWITCHES - you should only use LL to control the HX, and it will work just fine with everything in sync (HX it will only receive);

 

1. HX; Footswitch Pressed - Bypass ON - CC XY Send Value 127
2. LL; CC XY Receive Value 127 - Footswitch Led ON
3. LL; Footswitch Pressed - CC XY Send Value 0 - Footswitch Led OFF
4. HX; CC XY Receive Value 0 - Bypass OFF
5. LL; Footswitch Pressed - CC XY Send Value 127 - Footswitch Led ON
6. HX; CC XY Receive Value 127 - Bypass ON
7. LL; Footswitch Pressed  - CC XY Send Value 0 - Footswitch Led OFF
8. GO TO POINT 4 

 

If you alternate commands between the two hardware, within the same cycle, you get that (you are basically trying to control the controller);

 

1. HX; Footswitch Pressed - Bypass ON - CC XY Send Value 127
2. LL; CC XY Receive Value 127 - Footswitch Led ON
3. HX; Footswitch Pressed - Bypass OFF - CC XY Send Value 0
4. LL; CC XY Receive Value 0 - Footswitch Led OFF
5. LL; Footswitch Pressed - CC XY Send Value 0 - Footswitch Led stays OFF
6. HX; CC XY Receive Value 0 - Bypass Stays OFF
7. LL; Footswitch Pressed again - CC XY Send Value 127 - Footswitch Led ON

 

If you need to go back to HX for any reason, keeping the two device in "sync", you should move to HX switches when latest value sent to LL was 127 (ON).

To avoid that mess, as I said earlier here, once you've everything in sync you should only use the LL to remote the HX.

 

This is all due the fact there is hardware toggle involved. Momentary wouldn't have this side effect. Same when using NOTEs to trigger commands in other devices. For example, I can program the LL to communicate with my EDPs, via NOTEs, and it works just perfect, because the EDPs are providing a Note for each command received on the hardware buttons.

 

(Still not possible with Stomp to completely solve the function to automatically send a MIDI packet with all FS status at each preset load.)

[rd2rk]

Per @PierM, the switches on the LL should work as we hoped.

 

Here's another example preset which sends all the messages to keep the LL and HXS switches in sync. Again, as @PierMsaid, after loading your preset, ONLY use the LL switches to toggle the Stomps.

 

Possible problems:

I only see that it's possible to use 5 Stomps, and that is what the preset does. The MODE shouldn't need anything from the HXS as it's completely handled from the LL.

Depending upon how the LL handles serial (consecutive) messages, it MAY need to receive a WAIT between messages. You can add that to the Instant Commands. It shouldn't be necessary with the Stomp commands. The double send at Preset/Snapshot load only happens because it's the HXS default behavior (ICs send first, then Toggling CC messages) and can't be turned off. Since the same messages are being sent it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Assuming that the presets works as intended, you should be able to figure out the logic from studying the Command Center configuration. Remember that each Snapshot has to be configured separately, settings do not carry over between Snapshots.

 

Off to the airport now, hope it works! Talk to you Monday!

sctwoodworks2.hlx

[aldomontoya]

Wow, this blew up :-) 

I didn't get a notification that there were responses but when I logged in to grab 3.50 (isn't it wonderful) I spotted the responses.

 

If I understand the post above, upon preset load, it should sync the LEDs, then the control is as per usual? 

 

It's not a major deal, I use it only as a backup live, so I'll keep playing, that's half the fun.

 

Thanks for all the thoughts above guys.

[PierM]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:44 AM, aldomontoya said:

Wow, this blew up :-) 

I didn't get a notification that there were responses but when I logged in to grab 3.50 (isn't it wonderful) I spotted the responses.

 

If I understand the post above, upon preset load, it should sync the LEDs, then the control is as per usual? 

 

It's not a major deal, I use it only as a backup live, so I'll keep playing, that's half the fun.

 

Thanks for all the thoughts above guys.

 

Set your blocks on the HX Stomp to match the Live Logic leds. Once you did that, just use the Live Logic. (then, I'd just ignore the leds all togheter, as they are pretty much useless since they are all white, other than weak and small...) 

 

OR, just save the assigned blocks to start in bypass within the presets, so you are forced to activate them all with the Live Logic, when you enter a preset. It can be annoying for busy presets, but if it's just couple of blocks it should be fine.

 

Since the Live Logic has only one single memory slot, I personally find that programming the Live Logic FS to mirror the HX Stomp FS CCs, is the best way to go, without going nuts normalizing all your presets to a single command scheme, which btw won't always work bidirectional due the nature of the hardware toggle.