Pitch Shifter options - help

[MayPRS]

I have a preset where I use the Twin Harmony and it sounds great in the mix - present, clear, no artifacts, etc. This a specific preset where I need an harmony setting the keys.

 

On all other presets that use harmony, I'm using the Dual Pitch block where I set +3 for Interval 1 and +7 for Interval2. These are the harmony intervals I need - but this block doesn't sound ANYWHERE near the quality, clearness and overall presence in the mix (and also add some artifacts!) as the Twin Harmony.

 

I use 4 CM with a physical amp. Pitch blocks are on amp effects loops, on Path 1B with 100% Mix. I tried the 50% mix but the harmonies become almost inaudible (I practically only hear the guitar notes).

 

Can I use the Twin Harmony block for the same purpose (fixed intervals) not depending on a specific key? Or any other alternatives? I cannot make the Dual Pitch sound good no matter how I try. I also tried it on Path 1A, etc to no avail.

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

EDIT: I'm using a LT.

[DunedinDragon]

There's a BIG difference between the Twin Harmony and the Dual Pitch.  The Twin Harmony has the ability to take into account the key and scale being used and Dual Pitch doesn't, and that's why they're used for different purposes.  If you need a static interval regardless of the key then you would use Dual Pitch.  If you need harmonized lead lines relative to the key and scale being used you use Twin Harmony.

 

That's a big difference if you're doing a 1, 3,  7 interval because the 3rd will be a different note when it's a major versus minor key.

[theElevators]

When I use any harmonizer, I put it after the amp/cab: at the end of the chain. 
 

If you run the harmonizer into the amp, it will result in sounding like you are plying double stops—it’ll be distorted. 
 

Take a look at my video about the placement of the harmonizer:

 

 

 

[MayPRS]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:23 AM, theElevators said:

When I use any harmonizer, I put it after the amp/cab: at the end of the chain. 
 

If you run the harmonizer into the amp, it will result in sounding like you are plying double stops—it’ll be distorted. 
 

Take a look at my video about the placement of the harmonizer:

 

 

 

 

How can I put it at "end of chain" if I use a physical amp? Meaning how can I avoid that "distortion"? That's exactly what I hear, like I'm playing some detuned double stops...

 

Many thanks!

[theElevators]

If your amp doesn’t have a send and a return, you cannot do 4 cable method. 
 

https://blog.andertons.co.uk/learn/what-is-4-cable-method

 

If you are using the 4 cable method,  you are adding effects to the preamp signal of your amp, and sending it to the power amp. 
 

 

Your blocks should be in this order. 

 

Guitar,

wah, distortion, send1 block -> physical amp’s input, physical amp’s send jack -> return1, harmonizer, reverb/delay 

-> finally into your physical amp’s return jack. 

So in your setup, put harmonizer after your send / return blocks, not before. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[MayPRS]

On 5/12/2023 at 12:03 PM, theElevators said:

If your amp doesn’t have a send and a return, you cannot do 4 cable method. 
 

https://blog.andertons.co.uk/learn/what-is-4-cable-method

 

If you are using the 4 cable method,  you are adding effects to the preamp signal of your amp, and sending it to the power amp. 
 

 

Your blocks should be in this order. 

 

Guitar ,

wah, distortion, send1 block -> physical amp’s input, physical amp’s send jack -> return1, harmonizer, reverb/delay 

-> finally into your physical amp’s return jack. 

So in your setup, put harmonizer after your send / return blocks, not before. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes that's exactly what I do. I use 4 CM and my amp haves FX Loop. I connect exactly that way, still can't make the Dual Pitch sound anywhere as good as the Twin Harmony.

[MayPRS]

Ah and also (and this could be the culprit): at home volumes it actually sound "nice", a bit of artifacts but nothing major. At gig volumes it sounds unpleasant...

[theElevators]

Just for fun, forget about 4 cable method.  Can you make it work with Helix's own amp, as I show it? 

 

Maybe your power amp is very very distorted, is there a way to clean it up?  Try changing the output level of the "send" blocks (instrument/line/mic) in Global Settings, it can be too hot for your power amp and you may be getting unwanted tube distortion!  or the speakers are "nicely broken in", so they distort the signal.   Just out of curiosity, what amp/cab are you using? 

 

IMO, as I've said before, 4-cable method was a nice thing to do in the olden days.  In 2023 it makes little sense to use a real amp in conjunction with a processor.  Too many factors to consider, too much inconsistency. 

 

Take it from a former cork-sniffer.  Just use the Helix, it has all the amps you could possibly ever need.  Your amp is not special, and can easily be substituted for what's available in the Helix.  Besides, when you run a digital processor with an amp using 4-cable method, you are effectively losing fidelity, when you convert digital to analog, then analog to digital, then again digital to analog.  There's an additional conversion step where you are no longer benefiting from using a tube amp, as you would have been in the olden days :)

 

Run your Helix -> clean power amp -> speaker cab for stage volume/air movement.  the end.  I tour regularly, and play a BMG guitar, as you can see.  lol

 

[MayPRS]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:45 PM, theElevators said:

Just for fun, forget about 4 cable method.  Can you make it work with Helix's own amp, as I show it? 

 

Maybe your power amp is very very distorted, is there a way to clean it up?  Try changing the output level of the "send" blocks (instrument/line/mic) in Global Settings, it can be too hot for your power amp and you may be getting unwanted tube distortion!  or the speakers are "nicely broken in", so they distort the signal.   Just out of curiosity, what amp/cab are you using? 

 

IMO, as I've said before, 4-cable method was a nice thing to do in the olden days.  In 2023 it makes little sense to use a real amp in conjunction with a processor.  Too many factors to consider, too much inconsistency. 

 

Take it from a former cork-sniffer.  Just use the Helix, it has all the amps you could possibly ever need.  Your amp is not special, and can easily be substituted for what's available in the Helix.  Besides, when you run a digital processor with an amp using 4-cable method, you are effectively losing fidelity, when you convert digital to analog, then analog to digital, then again digital to analog.  There's an additional conversion step where you are no longer benefiting from using a tube amp, as you would have been in the olden days :)

 

Run your Helix -> clean power amp -> speaker cab for stage volume/air movement.  the end.  I tour regularly, and play a BMG guitar, as you can see.  lol

 

 

Using a VOX AC30 - quick question: can I use the Fawn model and use just the AC30 cab as a cabinet? I guess connecting the Helix to the Return of the FX Loop, thus bypassing the AC30 preamp completely? In this case - I can "simulate" 4CM just by putting wha/ods before Fawn block and the rest after?

 

Oh and I too use a Red Special!!! 

[theElevators]

OK, so let's try a few things.  Don't rush to buy anything new before you try what I've outlined below :)

 

1. OK, so first, try to get my signal chain going with an internal Helix amp.  See: https://youtu.be/ueDcqkpzNAsr where I show all my settings.  For my sound I use classic distortion and Mail Order Twin--nothing remotely similar to what Brian May used.  Use headphones/monitors/computer speakers, or even a powered speaker (like one of those Bluetooth boomboxes).  Does it sound good that way?  No distortion of the harmonized notes? 

 

Now, run the same exact thing, but connect Helix to the "return" jack of your Vox AC30.  Does it sound good at all volumes?  If your Vox AC30 adds distortion, then that's unfortunately something you cannot control with the gear you currently have.  Ideally, a power amp should not color your sound at all.  Some amps like Marshalls unfortunately do! 

 

2. It doesn't appear you can disconnect the speakers easily to tap into the speakers on your amp, you need to open up the amp, and disconnect things, possibly un-solder wires, unless yours is different.  On most modern amps, that is possible.  For example on most Fender amps, there's a jack in the back that says "speakers".  There's a 1/4" cable from the speakers that plugs into it. 

 

 

My stage setup is to send XLR left/right to FOH, while the 1/4" jack is only used as a monitor mix.  I run Helix 1/4" into Mooer Baby Bomb power amp that is connected to the speaker of a Fender Deluxe amp.  Fender Deluxe is not powered!, as I only use it as a standalone speaker cabinet.  So I simply connect that little 1/4" cable from the speaker to the output of Mooer Baby Bomb. 

 

I also have an Orange 112 speaker cab.  When I can bring my own stuff to a gig, I do the same thing: Helix -> Mooer Baby Bomb -> Orange 112 for stage volume. 

 

BTW.  Soon after I acquired the Helix and I bought Baby Bomb, I actually sold my tube amp, since I no longer needed it.  I'm very happy with the setup I described above.  A speaker cab is always cheaper/lighter than a whole amp.  And Mooer Baby Bomb is absurdly small and compact. 

 

I did a quick search, and there are Vox speaker cabinets that are available.  So if it's important for you for the visual aspects to have a Vox amp-looking thing on stage, you can just purchase it.... it's also something like 20 lbs lighter than an AC30 https://voxamps.com/product/v212c-extension-cabinet/ 

 

Video about Mooer Baby Bomb:

 

 

[MayPRS]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:45 PM, theElevators said:

OK, so let's try a few things.  Don't rush to buy anything new before you try what I've outlined below :)

 

1. OK, so first, try to get my signal chain going with an internal Helix amp.  See: https://youtu.be/ueDcqkpzNAsr where I show all my settings.  For my sound I use classic distortion and Mail Order Twin--nothing remotely similar to what Brian May used.  Use headphones/monitors/computer speakers, or even a powered speaker (like one of those Bluetooth boomboxes).  Does it sound good that way?  No distortion of the harmonized notes? 

 

Now, run the same exact thing, but connect Helix to the "return" jack of your Vox AC30.  Does it sound good at all volumes?  If your Vox AC30 adds distortion, then that's unfortunately something you cannot control with the gear you currently have.  Ideally, a power amp should not color your sound at all.  Some amps like Marshalls unfortunately do! 

 

2. It doesn't appear you can disconnect the speakers easily to tap into the speakers on your amp, you need to open up the amp, and disconnect things, possibly un-solder wires, unless yours is different.  On most modern amps, that is possible.  For example on most Fender amps, there's a jack in the back that says "speakers".  There's a 1/4" cable from the speakers that plugs into it. 

 

 

My stage setup is to send XLR left/right to FOH, while the 1/4" jack is only used as a monitor mix.  I run Helix 1/4" into Mooer Baby Bomb power amp that is connected to the speaker of a Fender Deluxe amp.  Fender Deluxe is not powered!, as I only use it as a standalone speaker cabinet.  So I simply connect that little 1/4" cable from the speaker to the output of Mooer Baby Bomb. 

 

I also have an Orange 112 speaker cab.  When I can bring my own stuff to a gig, I do the same thing: Helix -> Mooer Baby Bomb -> Orange 112 for stage volume. 

 

BTW.  Soon after I acquired the Helix and I bought Baby Bomb, I actually sold my tube amp, since I no longer needed it.  I'm very happy with the setup I described above.  A speaker cab is always cheaper/lighter than a whole amp.  And Mooer Baby Bomb is absurdly small and compact. 

 

I did a quick search, and there are Vox speaker cabinets that are available.  So if it's important for you for the visual aspects to have a Vox amp-looking thing on stage, you can just purchase it.... it's also something like 20 lbs lighter than an AC30 https://voxamps.com/product/v212c-extension-cabinet/ 

 

Video about Mooer Baby Bomb:

 

 

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I will try it definitely and let you know!