4 CM Clean channel not really clean...

[NevenT]

I've got a Helix LT, and I'm setting up one of my presets to be a clean tone.  I'm using the 4 CM into a JCM 2000 50 watt (2005)

on the Green Crunch.

It seems no matter what preamp I use, I just can't get a crystal clean tone.  I've used a Digitech 1101 previously and still have it, and that totally bypasses the amp and gives me a nice clean tone from the processor.  

The Helix has to be able to do this, but I can't seem to find how to do that.

Suggestions are appreciated.

Thank you

[rd2rk]

Per the diagram from @MGW-Alberta.

Make sure that in Global Settings>Ins/Outs the FX Loop you're using is set to INST.

You may need to use SEND 1 (INST) and RETURN 2 (LINE).

[NevenT]

I just checked and the cables go as follows:

Guitar --> Guitar in on Helix

Helix Send --> into front Input of Marshall

Helix Return --> into Marshall loop Send

Helix 1/4 out --> into Marshall loop Return

 

I tried the suggested Global Settings and it did not make any significant difference, but I left it as Send 1 Inst, Return 2 Line.

[rd2rk]

On 12/18/2023 at 8:20 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

I'm not sure why rd2rk suggested that approach.  I'm sure there must be a reason but I can't think what it is.

I always use a loop block, loop 2 in my case.  I connect to send 2 and return 2 both on instrument level.

I never have issues but then I don't play Marshall amps.  I know guys with Marshalls and the loops and the direct outs can be finicky and noisy on some models.   The Vintage Moderns for example are particularly noisy and troublesome with regard to the loop and the direct out.

 

Your use of two Hx loops to create one loop aside, you appear to connecting it correctly or at least close enough.

 

Could you please upload your preset file to this forum so we can take a look at what you've got going on there?

Thx.

 

At the bottom of the post-dialog box there is a link to choose files to attach to your post.

 

I suggested using two loops because the Helix SEND 1>Amp Input needs to be INST, and I said that he MAY have to use Return 2 set to LINE.

If the Amp is returning a Line Level signal that would be necessary to prevent overdriving the Return 1 which is set to INST.

 

@NevenThave you set the DRY THROUGH on the FX SEND 1 Block to -120db?

That needs to be done to prevent the clean signal from bypassing your Amp, going direct to the RETURN 2 Block and mixing with the RETURN from the amp.

 

Also, on the RETURN 2 Block set the MIX to 100%.

 

 

[rd2rk]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:32 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

FYI
In case anybody reading this does not already know:
Marshall JCM 2000 effect loop is selectable to either line level for compatibility with some rack units or instrument level for stomp boxes and most other devices.

There is a control for this function on the rear panel right beside the loop jacks.

I recommend keeping everything at instrument level on both units.

It's just easier, less complicated, less confusing, easier troubleshooting.

Whenever possible, keep it simple.

 

Keeps it down to just the one FX Loop 1 Block. Simple is better.

[NevenT]

Guys, 

I'll get to this in a bit, got some work stuff that I gotta do.  But I'll be back soon and appreciate all the assistance!!

[NevenT]

Hey, 

Sorry for the late response.  

I only have 1 Send/Return block and both are set to 0.0db.  

Going to try and upload that patch....

[NevenT]

I hope this works.  I have it set up in NT Custom 01A

NEV TONES.hls

[datacommando]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:06 AM, NevenT said:

I hope this works.  I have it set up in NT Custom 01A

NEV TONES.hls 6.01 kB · 0 downloads

Hi,

 

The file you uploaded is Helix setlist file, as you can tell by the file extension - .hls.

 

An individual preset file should have the extension- .hlx

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[NevenT]

Try this one....

Preset000-NT CUSTOM.hlx

[NevenT]

I should add a little more detail to this topic. 

I'm using snapshots.  On my clean snapshot, the Tube screamer is not engaged.  Only the Preamp, Delay and Chorus which are Y split after the Volume, then Merged just before the last effect of Reverb.

The placement of the volume block is there because it makes the volume increase much smoother instead of nothing and abruptly hearing volume.  It "Swells" nicer. 

 I'm not using the volume block for cleaning up, it's only to cut the volume completely if needed vs rolling back guitar volume knob.  I'm getting rid of the wah and using a traditional Wah.

Thanks,

[NevenT]

The Placater is the clean setting, not the high gain one.  I'll try a specific clean preamp to see if that makes any difference.  The 3 db has been corrected to 0 db.  

Other than that, I don't know what else I could try.  

The settings on the Marshall JCM 2000 are just about 6.5 on the EQ knobs across the board.  This head has 4 tone settings, I'm only on the mild crunch (Green channel). 

I prefer to use the Green Crunch and hit it with a hot Tube Screamer setting.  It's got warmer tones than the high gain ones.

The Red channels are high gain but I'm not using them.

 

[datacommando]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:07 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

Also, your merge mixer is set to +3 dB on the output.  Not sure why.

 

On 1/6/2024 at 1:34 AM, NevenT said:

The 3 db has been corrected to 0 db.  

 

Hi,

 

Regarding the +3db function on the merge mixer.

 

This is normal for the Helix line of products and is due to an audio "science" thing known as Pan Law.

 

Here's some info from a while back.

 

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

[NevenT]

While appreciate the recent replies and assistance, I still don't have a resolution as to why I can't get a super clean tone when the Helix LT should be bypassing my amps tone and providing the selected pre amp tone from the Helix.

Anyone out there having success with this when using a Marshall JCM 2000?

[rd2rk]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:40 PM, NevenT said:

While appreciate the recent replies and assistance, I still don't have a resolution as to why I can't get a super clean tone when the Helix LT should be bypassing my amps tone and providing the selected pre amp tone from the Helix.

Anyone out there having success with this when using a Marshall JCM 2000?

 

You're running the Placator PRE into the JCM2000 PRE where it's acting as a boost to the JCM.

In your CLEAN Snapshot, disable the FX Loop. This will put the Placator (plus FX) directly into the JCM2000 poweramp. 

I'm not sure where the MASTER Volume is in the JCM circuit, so you probably want to turn down the Helix Volume Knob the first time you use that snapshot and turn it up slowly. If the JCM Master doesn't control the power amp level (it's not located post RETURN in the circuit) you'll need to assign the Output Block Level to Snapshots and lower it in your clean Snapshot to compensate.

[NevenT]

I'll try that.

A question to ask, if I disable the FX loop, I won't be able to use any Chorus, or Delay because those effects are IN the FX loop.  Is that correct? 

[rd2rk]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:43 PM, NevenT said:

I'll try that.

A question to ask, if I disable the FX loop, I won't be able to use any Chorus, or Delay because those effects are IN the FX loop.  Is that correct? 

 

If you're using external FX in that FX loop, yes. At that point it becomes an existential choice...What do you want from life?

a Helix Preamp replacing your amp's preamp, or the external FX instead of Helix FX, or a baby's arm holding an apple? (extra points for identifying the song reference without Google...)

 

You COULD use both FX loops, with your external FX in one and the amp in the other. That way the FX work with whichever preamp is active.

[datacommando]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:24 AM, rd2rk said:

or a baby's arm holding an apple?

A beautifully restored Third Reich swizzle stick. 
;-)

[NevenT]

I disabled the effects loop for my clean channel and it did sound much better.  Thanks for the suggestion.

However, now I have a separate issue in doing this.

When I go from my Clean tone to my Dirty rhythm tone, I get a "Pop" sound.  It doesn't happen when I go from Dirty to Clean, only from Clean to Dirty.

If I totally stop playing and hit the Dirty preset, there's no "Pop" but that's not always possible to do.

Any suggestions?

[rd2rk]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:20 PM, NevenT said:

I disabled the effects loop for my clean channel and it did sound much better.  Thanks for the suggestion.

However, now I have a separate issue in doing this.

When I go from my Clean tone to my Dirty rhythm tone, I get a "Pop" sound.  It doesn't happen when I go from Dirty to Clean, only from Clean to Dirty.

If I totally stop playing and hit the Dirty preset, there's no "Pop" but that's not always possible to do.

Any suggestions?

 

Working from the preset you provided I don't see a "Dirty Rhythm" Snapshot. I have ToneX with a dirty Marshall loaded up in my FX Loop, and I'm not getting a pop when I go from CLEAN to CRUNCH, SOLO1 or SOLO2.

 

Are you asking about a different preset? if so, attach it.

[bureydey]

I disabled the effects loop for my clean channel and it did sound much better.  Thanks for the suggestion.