Reamping: Helix versus Native

[novonobo]

Hi there!

 

I wanted to share this topic, see if anyone has run into the same issue and maybe can provide some help.
Here is what I want to achieve: while rehearsing with my band I record everything in multi-tracks including both my guitar dry and wet signals, so I can work on my presets back at home.
I use Helix floor live, and Native for reamping at home, both in 3.7 versions.
My problem is that when I compare my recorded wet signal, with the dry one going thru Native with the same preset, I do not get the same sound! I was expecting some volume level differences but here I am speaking more of gain/hot/drive differences (or whatever you want to call it...), affecting the tone.

 

I investigated a bit, trying to keep it as simple as possible.
Here is my set-up:
- Helix Floor: wet signal goes out of the 1/4'' output set as "Line", dry signal goes thru a Fx Send block (first in the chain) set also as "Line" (to keep it consistent). Every parameter that may affect the I/O gain is set to 0dB. No global EQ, main Vol button is set to Max.
- Dry and wet outputs go straight in a XR18 mixer. This is my audio interface, connected to my laptop via USB. For recording, I use Reaper. Signals out of the XR18 to Reaper are picked up at the "Analog input" level, meaning before any processing (preamp, EQ, ...) from XR18. And in Reaper, any gain, leveling, etc is set at 0dB (again here, I try to minimize the number of parameters involved).

 

First I check my recording by using an empty preset on the Helix floor (except for the Fx Send block): signals recorded from both Send and Main output are the same.
I could not get perfect cancellation using phase inverter for the simple reason that there is a slight delay, Send output is getting to the Mixer before the Main output. But waveforms are the same.

 

Then I add an Amp+Cab block to my Helix preset, for example Line6 Aristocrat with Default settings.
For the comparison in Reaper I apply a Native plugin on my Dry signal recording: same preset ("Amp+Cab" block only) and I/O levels set to 0dB.
This is where I get confused: the signal recorded from the Helix Main output seems to be "hotter" than the one coming out of Native. The only way I manage to get both signals closer to each other is to increase the Input level in Native (to feed the Amp block with more gain) and to decrease the Output level in Native (to balance the output volume level).
I tried different types of Amp blocks: with cleaner tones it's less obvious but this is definitively not a problem of volume balance, the output tone changes depending on the input level entering the Amp block.

 

What do you think, am I doing something wrong? If not, this might have something to do with the way Native plugin is calibrated. Is there a standard rule to deal with Input/Output levels in Native so that it behaves the same as the Helix floor?

 

Note: my set-up may sound a bit odd, I know reamping works well when you use Helix floor as your main Audio interface and the dedicated USB 7/8 output. But I do not see why it should not work my way too...

 

Thanks in advance for any comments !

[waymda]

Some observations:

• the I/O with Native vs the Helix as described is fundamentally different so I would expect different sounds
• the Helix is being fed an unamplified instrument level guitar signal, your DAW is recording a line level signal which is then being 'reamped'
• this is not the same as recording the dry output from the Helix via USB - those levels are very low and often a cause of consternation for new users
• hence, the input levels for the hardware and software versions is not the same - at the very least you'd need to match the input levels
• you mention setting parameters and gain leveling to 0DB, but this has nothing to do with the recorded level - you should be aiming for -13dbu (if not less, many aim for -18dbu@peak) for any digital recording to ensure no digital clipping in the recorded signal - the digital signal can be increased without increasing the noise floor so no need to record hot
• there are both input and output gain settings on native that are independent of the patches created on the hardware - these will be your friend
• is there a single simple rule/approach to use across all DAWs and hardware/DA scenarios? No, you're adding complexity/hardware/driver/software layers so the solution will be complex and bespoke.

[silverhead]

Just to confirm ….

 

Using my Helix Rack device as the audio interface I record both a wet and dry signal, using USB 1&2 for the wet recording and USB 7 (or 8) for the dry recording. I then import the preset I used for the wet signal into Helix Native and apply it to the recorded dry signal. I cannot hear any difference between the HN-processed dry track and the wet track.

 

The difference you hear is due to your setup, as explained above. 

[datacommando]

On 1/9/2024 at 12:51 PM, novonobo said:

What do you think, am I doing something wrong? If not, this might have something to do with the way Native plugin is calibrated. Is there a standard rule to deal with Input/Output levels in Native so that it behaves the same as the Helix floor?

Hi,

 

I have to concur with @silverhead in the post above. I too, record the stereo fully processed audio from USB 1&2, along with a DI signal from USB7 from my Helix floor into Logic Pro. Using the exact same preset in HX Native to re-amp the dry signal has no discernible difference on the audio output. I could also play it back through the hardware - same result - no difference.

I’m more inclined to think that this is how you are using you set up. In fact John Nathan Cordy made a video a few days back explaining why some people, including him, have issues with plug-ins.

 

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[novonobo]

Thanks guys for your comments so far!

 

On 1/10/2024 at 9:04 AM, waymda said:

• hence, the input levels for the hardware and software versions is not the same - at the very least you'd need to match the input levels

 

Yes, that's my root cause...

 

On 1/10/2024 at 9:04 AM, waymda said:

• you mention setting parameters and gain leveling to 0DB, but this has nothing to do with the recorded level - you should be aiming for -13dbu (if not less, many aim for -18dbu@peak) for any digital recording to ensure no digital clipping in the recorded signal - the digital signal can be increased without increasing the noise floor so no need to record hot

 

Maybe I am wrong here. When I say I put everything at 0dB in my DAW, that's the way I imagine working at unity, not adding any extra gain somewhere and feed my recorded audio dry signal into Native "as is"

 

On 1/10/2024 at 9:04 AM, waymda said:

• there are both input and output gain settings on native that are independent of the patches created on the hardware - these will be your friend

 

Indeed, I made some more trials and I managed to achieve my goal by reducing the Native plugin input by roughly -5.5dB and increase the output by +5dB.

 

On 1/10/2024 at 6:14 PM, silverhead said:

Using my Helix Rack device as the audio interface I record both a wet and dry signal, using USB 1&2 for the wet recording and USB 7 (or 8) for the dry recording. I then import the preset I used for the wet signal into Helix Native and apply it to the recorded dry signal. I cannot hear any difference between the HN-processed dry track and the wet track.

 

Yep, this works fine but I do not use Helix as my audio interface. I could think in modifying my setup to do so but then it becomes more painful if I want to take benefit of the whole band mix when reamping my guitar sound...

 

On 1/11/2024 at 2:53 PM, datacommando said:

In fact John Nathan Cordy made a video a few days back explaining why some people, including him, have issues with plug-ins.

 

I have seen that. I am not sure to understand everything but he is speaking of using plugins with your guitar plugged into an audio interface, right? And depending on the audio interface you may have to adjust the plugin input level (generally reducing it) to feed the plugin properly.

In my case I found out that if I want to match the tone of an analog wet signal recorded out of the Helix, I need to boost the corresponding analog dry signal entering into Native...

 

Other thought: i tried using Guitar Pad On in my Helix. By doing so I believe it affects my wet tone since I am entering the Amp block with a lower signal. But also the discrepancy I have been experiencing with my post-processed dry signal through Native tends to be less noticeable. If that makes sense...

Next step: I will need to buy new ears!

 

Cheers

[waymda]

 

On 1/12/2024 at 10:02 AM, novonobo said:

Maybe I am wrong here. When I say I put everything at 0dB in my DAW, that's the way I imagine working at unity, not adding any extra gain somewhere and feed my recorded audio dry signal into Native "as is"

 

Maybe - Unity means exactly what you've said no gain added (or removed) the maybe is because different elements of DAWs may add or remove gain at what appears to be a 0 setting. They shouldn't, but.......

 

This might be a useful reference for recording and levels

https://mojosarmy.medium.com/recording-and-mixing-levels-demystified-151ec65705fa

[waymda]

A thought - if you can establish the optimal input gain for Native you could normalise the recorded dry tracks in the DAW to that level. I'm not Reaper user, but my DAW allows selection of individual tracks and normalisation to predetermined levels.