Rotary Cabinet 'effect' models and their use.

[somebodyelse]

One the gurus/hippies old enough to remember the late '60s. ;)

 

I'm trying to emulate a sound effect used on an album recorded in '68/'69.

I'm 99% certain the effect is a Leslie/Rotary cabinet, probably something to do with a B3 organ also used on the album.

Question is, the guitarist was an 'exclusively' AC30 user back then, so in order to get the sound, would he have had to use a different amp to get sound in to the cabinet?

Also, in emulating that on a Helix, would you use a rotary model without a cab block, or are the Rotary models based on pedals that emulate the rotary speaker sounds.

 

I know, I know... use whatever gets the job done. I'm asking, because I want to try to get the sound the way it would have been done back then (virtually), before I resort to 'fudging it'.

 

Thanks.

[benriddell]

I’m definitely not a 60s kid but this might help (not watched it in a while though so don’t shoot the messenger)
 

 

[somebodyelse]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:31 PM, benriddell said:

I’m definitely not a 60s kid but this might help (not watched it in a while though so don’t shoot the messenger)
 

 

Any and all ideas gratefully received... as it happens, it's likely the guitarist in question may have borrowed Harrison's Leslie, especially if he/it was hanging around Abbey Road at the time.

[datacommando]

On 9/12/2024 at 1:26 PM, somebodyelse said:

Any and all ideas gratefully received... as it happens, it's likely the guitarist in question may have borrowed Harrison's Leslie, especially if he/it was hanging around Abbey Road at the time.

I was at Art College in the late 60’s, but they say if you can remember it, then you weren’t really there.
 

I don’t understand why you don’t reference the guitarist and album/track that you mentioned. As I’m now on the far side of my allotted 3 score years and 10, a clue may be helpful, because what I can remember is the whole world and his brother were messing around sticking guitar sound through Leslie cabs. Which I believe was started by Buddy Guy back in ‘65 when his amp failed during a recording session.

 

Few examples:- Cream - Badge (featuring Hari Georgeson), Hendrix - Little Wing and Angel, a certain Mr. Page - Good Times Bad Times, Joe Walsh (James Gang) - Cast You Fate to the Wind, etc. Although, I think George Harrison was the only regular Vox user in my list.

 

Please expand your request.

[somebodyelse]

On 9/12/2024 at 3:08 PM, datacommando said:

I was at Art College in the late 60’s, but they say if you can remember it, then you weren’t really there.
 

I don’t understand why you don’t reference the guitarist and album/track that you mentioned. As I’m now on the far side of my allotted 3 score years and 10, a clue may be helpful, because what I can remember is the whole world and his brother were messing around sticking guitar sound through Leslie cabs. Which I believe was started by Buddy Guy back in ‘65 when his amp failed during a recording session.

 

Few examples:- Cream - Badge (featuring Hari Georgeson), Hendrix - Little Wing and Angel, a certain Mr. Page - Good Times Bad Times, Joe Walsh (James Gang) - Cast You Fate to the Wind, etc. Although, I think George Harrison was the only regular Vox user in my list.

 

Please expand your request.

Sorry, most around here are unlikely to have heard of him. The track is called Aquarius (yeah, a cover of that) by Hank Marvin of the Shadows, from his first solo album. A lot of his guitar-playing fans believe it's a flanger, which isn't possible as it was recorded approximately 8 years before the first commercially available unit. I very much doubt it's the studio staff creating the effect, as he's the kind of guy who doesn't tend to do on record what he can't do on stage.

The album seems to feature this effect throughout, along with the De Armond 610 volume/tone pedal, and my train of thought was that it could only realistically be either the Univibe or a Leslie cabinet. When I tried the Univibe model, t didn't really get close. The brief flirtation with the 145 Rotary has me 99% convinced... 

Him n George were good friends, not on 'wife-swapping terms', AFAIK :D, but it's possible he borrowed George's Leslie rig.

 

The guitar on the recording is a Burns (surprise, surprise) Marvin, The only way it wouldn't be an AC30 amp is if it just wasn't technically possible/necessary to somehow rig it up with the Leslie.

It's not really about 'nailing the tone' - I can do that in my sleep - but speculating about how it would have been created back then, ie. I assume a guitar wouldn't be plugged directly in to a Leslie amp, since it was designed for use with an organ, so could it be a case of micing an amp, sending that through a pre-amp and in to the Leslie, or using direct box/pre-amp in to the Leslie - I'm assuming impedance and level mis-matching, otherwise.

 

Thanks

 

[datacommando]

On 9/12/2024 at 3:47 PM, somebodyelse said:

Sorry, most around here are unlikely to have heard of him.

 

Shock - Horror! You have to be kidding me? Everyone knows about that fine Geordie lad, Hank B Marvin. Hank is the reason the VOX AC30 was brought into existence in 1958 - he needed something that could be heard above the screaming young girls at the Cliff Richards and The Shadows gigs. Check out - 
http://www.shadowmusic.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12125&start=10

for some more in depth discussion about the sound on Aquarius (double tracked?, Fairchild Compressors?, Jennings J40 amp.)

 

Anyhoo - regarding Leslie Cabs, the general consensus of opinion seems one that you don't use any other cab along with it. Although there is mention of the "rotary speaker" being used as a "Jennings Gyrosonic".

See this: http://www.voxshowroom.com/catalogs/scene5.html

 

It might mean that a certain Beatle had no involvement at all.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

 

[somebodyelse]

On 9/12/2024 at 4:25 PM, datacommando said:

 

Shock - Horror! You have to be kidding me? Everyone knows about that fine Geordie lad, Hank B Marvin. Hank is the reason the VOX AC30 was brought into existence in 1958 - he needed something that could be heard above the screaming young girls at the Cliff Richards and The Shadows gigs. Check out - 
http://www.shadowmusic.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12125&start=10

for some more in depth discussion about the sound on Aquarius (double tracked?, Fairchild Compressors?, Jennings J40 amp.)

 

Anyhoo - regarding Leslie Cabs, the general consensus of opinion seems one that you don't use any other cab along with it. Although there is mention of the "rotary speaker" being used as a "Jennings Gyrosonic".

See this: http://www.voxshowroom.com/catalogs/scene5.html

 

It might mean that a certain Beatle had no involvement at all.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

 

LOL.

Well, the forums are usually full of Yanks, half my age - I'm a 57 year Mancunian.

 

Very interesting and (sort of) confirms what I was thinking. In terms of the 'fuzz' sounds mentioned in that thread, my gut feeling is either Dallas Rangemaster or a Fuzz Face - those are the only ones in the Helix that work (for me) with a Vox amp. I'm inclined to thin that where a rotary speaker was used the distortion may have actually been generated within it's amplifier, though.

I should add, Over the last 10-15 years, I've produced echo patches for several different multi fx units and detailed fx chains for my DAW. 

Did them for the Helix a couple of years back, and then a friend asked if I could do some for his POD Go - he was already using my Zoom G3 patches. Anyhoo., they were originally just echo unit emulations - EQs and delay chains to emulate the tonal characteristics of the units HBM used 'back in the day'. With what the Helix can do, I added amps cabs, blah, blah, blah... Then when I did them again for my mate's POD Go, it occurred to me I could actually go back and add all those effects he used on recordings between around '67-'76, use Snapshots. etc

I'm not really a mad Shadows/Hank Marvin fan, myself - it's more my Dad's era, but heard their stuff around the house a lot growing up, as my Dad also plays. I got in to the patches thing whilst trying to really get my Dad's sound nailed on.

I have to say, while everyone else seems to lean towards the early stuff, I really like that period between '67-'76ish when they were working with John Farrar and experimenting with sound and style a bit.

 

Once again, thanks for the info.

[datacommando]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:26 PM, somebodyelse said:

LOL.

Well, the forums are usually full of Yanks, half my age - I'm a 57 year Mancunian.

 

Very interesting and (sort of) confirms what I was thinking. In terms of the 'fuzz' sounds mentioned in that thread, my gut feeling is either Dallas Rangemaster or a Fuzz Face - those are the only ones in the Helix that work (for me) with a Vox amp. I'm inclined to thin that where a rotary speaker was used the distortion may have actually been generated within it's amplifier, though.

I should add, Over the last 10-15 years, I've produced echo patches for several different multi fx units and detailed fx chains for my DAW. 

Did them for the Helix a couple of years back, and then a friend asked if I could do some for his POD Go - he was already using my Zoom G3 patches. Anyhoo., they were originally just echo unit emulations - EQs and delay chains to emulate the tonal characteristics of the units HBM used 'back in the day'. With what the Helix can do, I added amps cabs, blah, blah, blah... Then when I did them again for my mate's POD Go, it occurred to me I could actually go back and add all those effects he used on recordings between around '67-'76, use Snapshots. etc

I'm not really a mad Shadows/Hank Marvin fan, myself - it's more my Dad's era, but heard their stuff around the house a lot growing up, as my Dad also plays. I got in to the patches thing whilst trying to really get my Dad's sound nailed on.

I have to say, while everyone else seems to lean towards the early stuff, I really like that period between '67-'76ish when they were working with John Farrar and experimenting with sound and style a bit.

 

Once again, thanks for the info.

LOL, a Manc - I’m just the other side of the Pennines from you, in a small town that used to present itself as the Las Vegas of the North - home of the famous Variety Club! A multitude of very famous names played there.

 

As a dweller of Manchester (on the west coast of God’s Own Country), I hope you haven’t fallen into the trap and paid over the odds for one of the Oasis reunion gigs. Jeeziz, I saw them years ago when they were known as Rain and played support for the Joe Louis Walker All Stars band. Just what the world needs - another Beatles tribute band and a very poor one at that.

 

Back to the issue - as for the “fuzz” fx, my guess would be like yours - Rangemaster or Fuzz Face, as they are things from the same era, and it appears you have the Hank tape echo sorted if you are emulating the Binson or Meazzi (I believe Joe Brown gave the Italian delay to him) multi head tape delays. Much like your dad, as a youngster I was a big fan of Hank, and I think it has been well documented how much of an influence he was on a whole bunch of guitar players who came along in his wake.

 

Regards and have fun recreating the “Aquarius” tone.

[somebodyelse]

On 9/13/2024 at 1:05 AM, datacommando said:

LOL, a Manc - I’m just the other side of the Pennines from you, in a small town that used to present itself as the Las Vegas of the North - home of the famous Variety Club! A multitude of very famous names played there.

 

As a dweller of Manchester (on the west coast of God’s Own Country), I hope you haven’t fallen into the trap and paid over the odds for one of the Oasis reunion gigs. Jeeziz, I saw them years ago when they were known as Rain and played support for the Joe Louis Walker All Stars band. Just what the world needs - another Beatles tribute band and a very poor one at that.

 

Back to the issue - as for the “fuzz” fx, my guess would be like yours - Rangemaster or Fuzz Face, as they are things from the same era, and it appears you have the Hank tape echo sorted if you are emulating the Binson or Meazzi (I believe Joe Brown gave the Italian delay to him) multi head tape delays. Much like your dad, as a youngster I was a big fan of Hank, and I think it has been well documented how much of an influence he was on a whole bunch of guitar players who came along in his wake.

 

Regards and have fun recreating the “Aquarius” tone.

We escaped Manchester in the mid '70s when I was 7. Grew up in the High Peak. Definitely (not even maybe ;)) NOT an Oasis fan, although Liam has been in my old local a couple of times. Nice enough bloke - nothing like the 'public persona'. I've been down in Brum for nearly 25 years - a work thing.

I say I'm not 'a mad HBM fan', but him and Bruce Welsh would be on my 'Top 20 Favourites' list.

I struggled a bit when I first got my Helix in '21. Doing these presets actually taught me a lot. I'm not a 'tribute act' player, but I have to say, I get as much enjoyment out of trying to match 'famous sounds' on it for my friends, as I do playing through it.

I can actually get it to sound like my own rig, as well!