lawrence_Arps Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Let me start by saying 2 things. First, the Souncdscape system is fantastic. I used to teach audio, have a long background in live and studio engineering, and I researched a lot before committing a lot of Money - 2 x L3S , 3 x L3M, 3 x L2M and the m20 mixer. I love the rig . second, I get frustrated with posts from users who clearly lack the knowledge required to understand equipment of this type, and who don't read the manual. Time and time again there are crazy complaints that are not the fault of the gear but the fault of a user who has not taken the time to learn how it works etc. I think companies like line 6 cope very well with this frustration and remain polite etc........ I also understand the liability that a company faces if it publicly acknowledges a problem and realise that this is a decision that cannot be taken lightly. Not withstanding the various responses I have seen to the volume drop issue are troubling. My M20 exhibits this fault on a regular basis, on both jacks and xlrs and on multiple channels. Thank God it has not yet happened at a gig. Replugging the input usually clears the problem. On my guitar input ( HD500X going direct) the fault shows up in 1 or other of the stereo linked inputs . The difference in level is clearly visible on the channel meter and the master meter. At my last rehearsal the fault exhibited on a vocal channel as soon as it was plugged in......then cleared on replugging. The gain drop looks to be 12 dB or so...enough that it sounds like its one speaker only at first. As my guitar rig runs direct I use the M20 every day. When I get back from rehearsal it gets set up and remains so for a week - unless there's a gig in between. During that week I may have the level drop once or twice on average over 8 - 12 hours of use. whether this is hardware or software is hard to judge ....but the fault is real. If acknowledged us users could at least see a future where this might get sorted. I remain a fan and advocate of the system. I just want it to be reliable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dboomer Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Troubleshooting by remote control is difficult and often frustrating both for us and for the user with the difficulty. It's very difficult to troubleshoot gear problems without having the gear right in front of you. We have spent a lot of time trying to track this reported problem and have never been able to duplicate it in our lab other than the normal changes to gain hat happen by "trim tracking". We would be happy to check out your system. If the problem clears itself by unplugging and re plugging in it is also possible that the issue is with the jack or cable or even the device on the other end of the cable. It is possible that your HD500 has the problem. But until it gets tested all we can do is guess. Please email me directly and let's see if we can get this straightened out. dboomer@line6.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence_Arps Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thanks - email on the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaseFIJo Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Did you ever get to the bottom of this? sounds very similar to an issue I've noted with my M20 and posted looking for opinions. See: Relative levels fading a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dboomer Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 There is no known issue with the firmware that causes and drops in level. It is possible that errors in operating the mixer could be a cause so that needs to be ruled out first. Once that is decided that basically leaves either external conditions ( faulty cables or problems with the source gear) or the mixer has a hardware issue. If the mixer itself developed a problem then it will need to be looked at by the service department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Auricchio Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 The gain drop looks to be 12 dB or so...enough that it sounds like its one speaker only at first. This could be a problem of balanced/unbalanced cable sensing. A properly balanced signal will be 14dB louder than an unbalanced one. If you are using the unbalanced output of the HD500X, then you should use 1/4" TS plugs (standard guitar cord). If you are using the balanced output of the HD500X, then you should use XLR cables (standard mic cables). There are a few reasons I can think of for the M20d to suddenly switch from seeing a balanced to an unbalanced signal. If this happens, you get an instant 14dB drop in signal strength. 1. Your XLR connectors are flaky and one of the leads (pin 2 or 3) drops out. Bad solder joints at the ends or marginal plug pins. Often a different XLR plug will make better contact. (You didn't say whether you tried different XLR cables.) 2. Your XLR cable is damaged somewhere along its length; either the pin 2 or pin 3 lead has a break. 3. The same goes for your 1/4" cables... 4. The input jack on the M20d is not consistently sensing the balanced signal. (Less likely, but it would require a repair.) And, as Don said, you can't expect too much help over the net... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucF16 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I have had the same or similar problem (if I understand the OP correctly) Paired stereo inputs not matching levels. I play keyboards and run direct from my keyboard amp to the M20D. Periodically I would have drastically different L/R levels. Confirmed by the direct recordings and by observation of the output meters...and of course how it souded. One channel much louder than the other. At first I thought it was anything BUT the M20D. Spent a lot of time and effort checking out my amp, then the cords. Then I thought it was the M20D on specific inputs. I finally realized that it could be fixed by turning the M20D off and back on. In my home studio I will sometimes run two channels back from my computer for playback music to practice with. I've had the exact same problem with both XLR combo jacks and the 1/4 jacks using balanced TRS cords. The fix was identical to the paragraph above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital-sound Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I think this is hardware related. I had it happen to me. Funny enough, the salesman that sold it to me was there. Meh walked up and manually adjusted the gain on the speaker itself. For me it was my main analog outs, and aux mix A. I decided I would take a peek under the hood. After attempting to open, I decided it was going to be more than a quick open and check so I closed it all back up. And, everything has been working fine since. Not a good fix, and clearly something that will come to haunt me later. I have a three year warranty, so next time it happens, I will have it looked at. But likely same problem with other users having this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucF16 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 For stereo paired channels you cannot adjust the individual gain manually. The inputs are paired. Like I said, a reset fixes the problem. I record almost every gig I do. When I drop the wav files into Logic you can actually see input trim change for some tracks just by looking at the waveform. Besides the stereo channel balance issue, I've had problems with lead singer vocals changing input during the gig. I can clearly see it happen on the waveforms that are recorded. I have had very little confidence that it's the M20D causing the problem thinking it was most likely a cord or the singers mike, although that is changing. We've started using a dedicated sound guy and he's been running the trim tracker off and manually setting the trim and, for our limited data points, I think we're getting a better result. Very hard to tell at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Auricchio Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I plan to run with Trim Tracking off. Since I'm busy playing and singing with the band, there would be no chance to rectify the situation if TT were to detect a momentary clip and reduce trim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArneLine6 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Trim tracking reduces the analog gain on the preamps but makes up the same amount of gain digitally so that the channel level never changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Auricchio Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Ah, I forgot about that. I'll have to enable it again in my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucF16 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Trim tracking reduces the analog gain on the preamps but makes up the same amount of gain digitally so that the channel level never changes. True, but in a situation with a very dynamic input, wouldn't it be possible for a transient peak to reset the gain and then for the average output to end up lower than it was before? The key here is something that might have a very transient peak. Say for example a singer yelling into a microphone, and then when you come back to a soft part of the song he's just not there anymore? That's our theory anyway. There's too many moving parts in the heat of battle to nail this down scientifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArneLine6 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 It actually is. If one dB is lowered on the pre amp one dB is added after the converter. This has been done for quite some time in, e.g., Digico consoles. They called it gain tracking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital-sound Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 True, but in a situation with a very dynamic input, wouldn't it be possible for a transient peak to reset the gain and then for the average output to end up lower than it was before? The key here is something that might have a very transient peak. Say for example a singer yelling into a microphone, and then when you come back to a soft part of the song he's just not there anymore? That's our theory anyway. There's too many moving parts in the heat of battle to nail this down scientifically. So with a singer yelling into the microphone, trim tracking won't affect the audible output. It will just make it "clean". Not distorted. The volume you set up in soundtrack, will be the same after trim tracking makes its adjustment. Without trim tracking, when a singer yells, it will be distorted. Just to clarify, trim tacking doesn't adjust the output volume. What it reduces at the input, is added to the output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence_Arps Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Hi everyone. I thought it time to update on where this got to. After several emails - mostly helpful in tone - I ended up being told to take the mixer back to my retailer. I did this, but showed them the post where a user modified their mixer with a dedicated ground buss. I had this done and overnight all the level drops have gone away.....Ill refrain from drawing any conclusions on that matter. ;) I remain a dedicate fan of the system. I await version 2.0...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racereese Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Ok help me understand, what do you mean by a dedicated ground bus.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence_Arps Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 if you read this thread all is revealed. http://line6.com/support/topic/8852-m20-input-level-disappears/?hl=input+level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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